Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
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#1 Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
Hi
I recently bought a substantial amount of Phosphoric Acid as it is the active ingredient in most commercially available rust removers.
Now I've come to use it, I'm not sure what concentration to use. What I have is 85% minimum assay.
I've made up a 10% solution and have a small part off the Audi in it and it's fizzing away nicely but I don't fancy coming back to a totally dissolved part. Even if it is off a cheap German import!
Any expert knowledge here?
Regards
I recently bought a substantial amount of Phosphoric Acid as it is the active ingredient in most commercially available rust removers.
Now I've come to use it, I'm not sure what concentration to use. What I have is 85% minimum assay.
I've made up a 10% solution and have a small part off the Audi in it and it's fizzing away nicely but I don't fancy coming back to a totally dissolved part. Even if it is off a cheap German import!
Any expert knowledge here?
Regards
Stuart
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
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#2 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
I suggest buying a Hillman Imp and trying it on that ?
Carsten
Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650
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#3 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
Nice one, Carsten.
I do actually love my Audi. I've owned it since 1995 so it is part of the family. It's a 1993 Audi 80 quattro Sport. 2.8 litre V6 and it's absolutely standard apart from the catalytic converters and the stereo, although I have the original.
Funny how I sold my 911 but kept the Audi.
Regards
I do actually love my Audi. I've owned it since 1995 so it is part of the family. It's a 1993 Audi 80 quattro Sport. 2.8 litre V6 and it's absolutely standard apart from the catalytic converters and the stereo, although I have the original.
Funny how I sold my 911 but kept the Audi.
Regards
Stuart
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
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#4 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
Clarkson always said a 911 is just a squeezed beetle ....
Carsten
Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650
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#5 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
Clarkson's an idiot. The 911 is a triumph of engineering and has endured for over 50 years, so it can't be all bad.
Mine was 'only' a 996 Carerra 2 but it was a brilliant car. I regretted selling it about 2 weeks afterwards. I just didn't use it enough and couldn't justify 4 two seater cars in the household.
Regards
Mine was 'only' a 996 Carerra 2 but it was a brilliant car. I regretted selling it about 2 weeks afterwards. I just didn't use it enough and couldn't justify 4 two seater cars in the household.
Regards
Stuart
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
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'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
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#6 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
No idea but Google found this
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia
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#7 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
This is the advice I was given many years ago when I had to rust treat the seat base of my first motocycle, an ex-GPO Bantam.
Apply the acid to the rusty area and wait until the rust goes black, then wash off the excess acid. Repeat if there is still rust visible. Finally, dry and apply primer.
Apply the acid to the rusty area and wait until the rust goes black, then wash off the excess acid. Repeat if there is still rust visible. Finally, dry and apply primer.
Chris '67 S1 2+2
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#8 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
That's interesting Chris, I assume it was phosphoric acid in your case too. I watched a YouTube video this afternoon where the presenter brushed on 85% phosphoric acid and pretty much wiped it straight off.
I've left my 10% solution soaking overnight. Let's see what tomorrow brings.
Regards
I've left my 10% solution soaking overnight. Let's see what tomorrow brings.
Regards
Stuart
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
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#9 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
The bad news is that my 996 Carrera , bought with 1200 miles on the clock in 1997 , was by an enormous margin the very worst car I have ever owned !!
The good news is that your vat of H2PO4 is probably 81% solution. I dilute it by about 1 in 10 to approximately 8%. You can put steel in that for ever and it will do it the base metal no harm - all it does is to convert any surface rust to ferrous phosphate which is what gives it a black colour
NB the same does NOT go for non-ferrous metals - it will attack die cast alloys and anything copper based i.e. brass, bronze etc very quickly, so if you use it for cleaning brake dust off wheels, leave it on for no more than about 8 minutes and then wash off thoroughly
The good news is that your vat of H2PO4 is probably 81% solution. I dilute it by about 1 in 10 to approximately 8%. You can put steel in that for ever and it will do it the base metal no harm - all it does is to convert any surface rust to ferrous phosphate which is what gives it a black colour
NB the same does NOT go for non-ferrous metals - it will attack die cast alloys and anything copper based i.e. brass, bronze etc very quickly, so if you use it for cleaning brake dust off wheels, leave it on for no more than about 8 minutes and then wash off thoroughly
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#10 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
Hi Christopher.....what preperation is needed to the remaining black layer befor you can paint......or can you use etch primer straight on.....thanks Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#11 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
Steve : for old parts which have been treated e.g. heater boxes etc I have just painted over the top of the coating ( some people advise wiping down with water before doing so ) and this has worked well enough for my purposes. For actual body parts I really do not know , but I think it would be wiser to rub it down lightly before priming . However, having said that , the purpose of using H2PO4 on clean new steel is , as I understand it , to "pickle" it i.e. to alter the molecular structure of the outermost layer , only a few microns thick, so that it is impervious - or at any rate less "pervious" - to oxidation by moisture ingress - and whether that effect is destroyed by rubbing down I do not know . Certainly my own experiments seem to have shown that once it is pickled, it can be sprayed with primer and then remains rustproof even in our Uk atmosphere for some months provided it is not exposed to actual water
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#12 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
Thanks Christopher, great info.. Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#13 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
Around 10% would be fine. For anyone else diluting phosphoric acid. While the heat liberated is not as much as when diluting sulphur acid never the less always add acid to water slowly. Wear goggles . Avoid getting the dilute product on skin. Even dilute it will cause severe eye damage if you get it in an eye...
Julian the E-type man
1962 FHC
1966 MGB....fab little car too
1962 FHC
1966 MGB....fab little car too
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#14 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
Always and only pour acid into water.
NEVER water into acid. Ugly things might happen.
Carsten
NEVER water into acid. Ugly things might happen.
Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650
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#15 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
Thanks Christopher, you've confirmed what I thought and I can report success with my 8.5% solution. Part was successfully painted on Monday after just a wipe of a cloth and application of a hot air gun prior to etch prime.
Next step will be the heater box off the E Type, after I've modified it to take the Fiero fan.
Shame about your 996. Either you've only ever had exceptionally good cars or you were very unlucky. They are generally very good.
Regards
Next step will be the heater box off the E Type, after I've modified it to take the Fiero fan.
Shame about your 996. Either you've only ever had exceptionally good cars or you were very unlucky. They are generally very good.
Regards
Stuart
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
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#16 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
Hi Stuart....after the acid did you just wipe the surface or rinse with watet
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#17 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
I believe that the issue of what to do post-application of phosphoric-acid-based treatments may be far more critical than some of us are presuming.
Rustbuster Ltd, for example, are quite specific regarding their H3PO4 product Phos-Kleen B, stating
"...... it will phosphate the steels surface and passivate any rust spots within the steels micropores, the rust will be chemically changed into iron phosphate and completely neutralised ....... used for light surface rust removal prior to painting open surfaces/body panels.
Prior to applying paint over Phos-Kleen B, neutralise and remove any phosphate salts by washing down with Rustbuster Chlor-X DTS salt remover prior to priming."
The French product OTRouille, made by ICI Paints, which is a similar H3PO4 product, specifically states that drips/stains on adjacent painted surfaces must be removed, without saying why, but then says "rincing with water is unnecessary" on ferrous metals ; however, does that mean that clean and bare steel don't need rincing, or only that treated rust doesn't need rincing ?
Rustbuster refer to the fact that water is insufficient for salt removal (but don't say whether they mean Sodium or Phosphate salts) when talking up that same Chlor-X salt-remover :
"Dry salt crystals cling so well to the surface of steel that the treatment has to be able to get behind the salt to lift it from the steels surface. Power washing alone cannot do this. A sample coupon of salt contaminated steel boiled for one hour in water will only remove 90% of contaminant salt, it is this hard crystallised salt that requires a special surface surfactant to get behind the crystal and lift it from the surface our formula achieves this at a molecular level not previously available on the UK market. "
However, their much stronger product, Phos-Kleen A, which contains both Phosphoric and Hydrochloric acids, comes with a spiel that says
"Once dry, neutralise Phos-Kleen A with Rustbuster Chlor-X solution or fresh water."
So water is OK with the more powerful commercial-grade product, but NOT with the Joe Public one ? Shurely Shome Mishtake ?
All this whilst maintaining that
"If you use a hydrochloric acid solution to remove rust from the steels surface you will find that the rust is removed back to clean steel very quickly but within a few hours the surface is rusting quicker than before, why? The dried surface salts from the hydrochloric acid (chlorides) are literally sucking water out of the air towards the steels surface creating the perfect rust cell.This is what happens when you know the salts are present the same process occurs when you don't."
Where's the logic in any of that ?!
My observation would be that whilst we are all faced with exactly the same complex surfaces composed of some rust, some paint, some bare-steel, we are all treating our cars with our own private formulations and concoctions, without any real conviction, which we then write up in our posts claiming victory and success - without any of the cars ever being subject to the kind of treatment (damp, rain, neglect, salt) that got them into that condition.
Not being sure of how to treat phosphoric-acid treated surfaces seems a glaring hole in our reasoning, and it's not because I've never had paint fall off or rust rear its ugly head - after using various brews of acid-based pickling, red-oxide undercoats, top coats, then spraying everything hollow with Waxoyl/Dinitrol or w.h.y. - that I have a fecking clue whether it really works - as my sample is too small and my vehicles are too cossetted.
Having just rinced out the inside of the Jag doors with Phos-Kleen B only this afternoon, and with them drying at 25°C in about 20% humidity even as I type, I find it hugely irritating that the clowns who retail most of the products that I've used for the last 10 years are incapable of giving me a comprehendible, logical, and comprehensive strategy of how and when to use them.
PS - for Forum-readers who didn't see this Topic
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10381&p=83396&hilit ... ter#p83396
I'm adding this extract :
I tried really hard back in 2014, whilst doing the Mini shell, to get to the bottom of how to use the Rustbuster Fe-123 stuff.
It sounded great.
However, I couldn't see how it was possible to use it in our familiar classic-car context where every surface is, generally, a mixture of 1) some good original paint, 2) some good bare steel, and 3) some rusty surface that you've done your very best to wire-brush and generally abrade down so it's brown and without loose flakes.
In my experience it is often impossible to accurately and precisely use a product or treatment "A" on surface-type 1, "B" on surface type 2, and "C" on type 3, as all three surfaces are intermingled.
I went to inordinately diplomatic lengths to try to find out from the manufacturer how to manage Fe-123 in this context, as ALL three types of surface - painted, bare, and rust - go black when you use it ; but the black is only anchored properly on ONE of the three, the rust, and on the paint and the steel it will fall off.
It's all very well saying "only use it on rust" - but the edges of your rusty area are by definition either bare steel or good paint, and the instructions appear to assume you're painting a rusty oil-rig.
All I can say after a multitude of emails is that I would NEVER buy, ever again, anything from that manufacturer.
My conclusion at the time was
"the product instructions are crap, it’s hopeless for mottled/mixed surfaces since you can’t apply it to anything but rust, and since every type of surface goes black you then can’t see where you shouldn’t have applied it ; the firm doesn’t read the questions you send them, the employee you get on the ‘phone gives ambiguous replies that belie a failure to grasp the subject, and the plastic tubs are a bitch to open."
Nice business, if you can get it.
PS - and don't ever buy more than you need ; I had to throw away 5 x 1 kg tubs of the stuff, unopened, that had separated out and would no longer re-incorporate when mixed.
Rustbuster Ltd, for example, are quite specific regarding their H3PO4 product Phos-Kleen B, stating
"...... it will phosphate the steels surface and passivate any rust spots within the steels micropores, the rust will be chemically changed into iron phosphate and completely neutralised ....... used for light surface rust removal prior to painting open surfaces/body panels.
Prior to applying paint over Phos-Kleen B, neutralise and remove any phosphate salts by washing down with Rustbuster Chlor-X DTS salt remover prior to priming."
The French product OTRouille, made by ICI Paints, which is a similar H3PO4 product, specifically states that drips/stains on adjacent painted surfaces must be removed, without saying why, but then says "rincing with water is unnecessary" on ferrous metals ; however, does that mean that clean and bare steel don't need rincing, or only that treated rust doesn't need rincing ?
Rustbuster refer to the fact that water is insufficient for salt removal (but don't say whether they mean Sodium or Phosphate salts) when talking up that same Chlor-X salt-remover :
"Dry salt crystals cling so well to the surface of steel that the treatment has to be able to get behind the salt to lift it from the steels surface. Power washing alone cannot do this. A sample coupon of salt contaminated steel boiled for one hour in water will only remove 90% of contaminant salt, it is this hard crystallised salt that requires a special surface surfactant to get behind the crystal and lift it from the surface our formula achieves this at a molecular level not previously available on the UK market. "
However, their much stronger product, Phos-Kleen A, which contains both Phosphoric and Hydrochloric acids, comes with a spiel that says
"Once dry, neutralise Phos-Kleen A with Rustbuster Chlor-X solution or fresh water."
So water is OK with the more powerful commercial-grade product, but NOT with the Joe Public one ? Shurely Shome Mishtake ?
All this whilst maintaining that
"If you use a hydrochloric acid solution to remove rust from the steels surface you will find that the rust is removed back to clean steel very quickly but within a few hours the surface is rusting quicker than before, why? The dried surface salts from the hydrochloric acid (chlorides) are literally sucking water out of the air towards the steels surface creating the perfect rust cell.This is what happens when you know the salts are present the same process occurs when you don't."
Where's the logic in any of that ?!
My observation would be that whilst we are all faced with exactly the same complex surfaces composed of some rust, some paint, some bare-steel, we are all treating our cars with our own private formulations and concoctions, without any real conviction, which we then write up in our posts claiming victory and success - without any of the cars ever being subject to the kind of treatment (damp, rain, neglect, salt) that got them into that condition.
Not being sure of how to treat phosphoric-acid treated surfaces seems a glaring hole in our reasoning, and it's not because I've never had paint fall off or rust rear its ugly head - after using various brews of acid-based pickling, red-oxide undercoats, top coats, then spraying everything hollow with Waxoyl/Dinitrol or w.h.y. - that I have a fecking clue whether it really works - as my sample is too small and my vehicles are too cossetted.
Having just rinced out the inside of the Jag doors with Phos-Kleen B only this afternoon, and with them drying at 25°C in about 20% humidity even as I type, I find it hugely irritating that the clowns who retail most of the products that I've used for the last 10 years are incapable of giving me a comprehendible, logical, and comprehensive strategy of how and when to use them.
PS - for Forum-readers who didn't see this Topic
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10381&p=83396&hilit ... ter#p83396
I'm adding this extract :
I tried really hard back in 2014, whilst doing the Mini shell, to get to the bottom of how to use the Rustbuster Fe-123 stuff.
It sounded great.
However, I couldn't see how it was possible to use it in our familiar classic-car context where every surface is, generally, a mixture of 1) some good original paint, 2) some good bare steel, and 3) some rusty surface that you've done your very best to wire-brush and generally abrade down so it's brown and without loose flakes.
In my experience it is often impossible to accurately and precisely use a product or treatment "A" on surface-type 1, "B" on surface type 2, and "C" on type 3, as all three surfaces are intermingled.
I went to inordinately diplomatic lengths to try to find out from the manufacturer how to manage Fe-123 in this context, as ALL three types of surface - painted, bare, and rust - go black when you use it ; but the black is only anchored properly on ONE of the three, the rust, and on the paint and the steel it will fall off.
It's all very well saying "only use it on rust" - but the edges of your rusty area are by definition either bare steel or good paint, and the instructions appear to assume you're painting a rusty oil-rig.
All I can say after a multitude of emails is that I would NEVER buy, ever again, anything from that manufacturer.
My conclusion at the time was
"the product instructions are crap, it’s hopeless for mottled/mixed surfaces since you can’t apply it to anything but rust, and since every type of surface goes black you then can’t see where you shouldn’t have applied it ; the firm doesn’t read the questions you send them, the employee you get on the ‘phone gives ambiguous replies that belie a failure to grasp the subject, and the plastic tubs are a bitch to open."
Nice business, if you can get it.
PS - and don't ever buy more than you need ; I had to throw away 5 x 1 kg tubs of the stuff, unopened, that had separated out and would no longer re-incorporate when mixed.
Rory
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
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#18 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
Very comprehensive and clearly heartfelt response, Rory. I fully understand where you are coming from.
The world is not an ideal place so we just have to do the best we can after taking what we consider to be the best advice.
What we do know is that steel rusts in the presence of an electrolyte. If we prevent moisture coming into contact with bare steel then we greatly reduce the risk of rust. This is the whole basis for painting, plating and all other forms of rust prevention and is also the reason we are reluctant to take our cars out in the rain.
There's a lot of rust Removal and prevention products available out there and an awful lot of sales and marketing hyperbole aimed at making sales first and foremost. This is why I bought phosphoric acid and not a rust eater type of product.
My initial enquiry was to see if there was any sound scientific process for the use of phosphoric acid. It seems that there isn't. As I always say, ask 12 experts a question and you will get 13 different answers.
At least I get the satisfaction of knowing that I paid a fraction of the cost for my product than I would have using one of the branded products.
Regards
The world is not an ideal place so we just have to do the best we can after taking what we consider to be the best advice.
What we do know is that steel rusts in the presence of an electrolyte. If we prevent moisture coming into contact with bare steel then we greatly reduce the risk of rust. This is the whole basis for painting, plating and all other forms of rust prevention and is also the reason we are reluctant to take our cars out in the rain.
There's a lot of rust Removal and prevention products available out there and an awful lot of sales and marketing hyperbole aimed at making sales first and foremost. This is why I bought phosphoric acid and not a rust eater type of product.
My initial enquiry was to see if there was any sound scientific process for the use of phosphoric acid. It seems that there isn't. As I always say, ask 12 experts a question and you will get 13 different answers.
At least I get the satisfaction of knowing that I paid a fraction of the cost for my product than I would have using one of the branded products.
Regards
Stuart
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
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#19 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
I just wiped with a dry cloth and then played a hot air gun over it for a while.mgcjag wrote:Hi Stuart....after the acid did you just wipe the surface or rinse with watet
The part in question was the battery clamp and it was seriously rusted, very heavily pitted. I first sand blasted it and then pickled it in my 9 to 1 water to phosphoric acid solution (and yes, I did add the acid to the water).
The part came out without any staining whatsoever. I then gave it 3 coats of etch primer before painting.
Regards
Stuart
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
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#20 Re: Rust Removal using Phosphoric Acid
For small parts I use Hammerite anti rust dip - it is Citric acid, it doesn't attack Al or Brass/Copper, and it changes from green to clear when the solution is spent.
Once the parts are derusted I fettle them, then boil in TSP to degrease. I then rinse in water, and dip in 10% phosphoric while putting them on hangers to paint.
Phosphoric is a bit difficult to find here, Hammerite is easy.
Once the parts are derusted I fettle them, then boil in TSP to degrease. I then rinse in water, and dip in 10% phosphoric while putting them on hangers to paint.
Phosphoric is a bit difficult to find here, Hammerite is easy.
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