Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
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#41 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
How could anyone bright enough to create a fortune of £40m then entrust a second hand car dealer with it?
With no contract? With little or no knowledge of the business in which he is investing?
Sounds like taking a big chance to me and you have to be prepared to take the risks with the rewards if that is the case.
I am with Chris one.
With no contract? With little or no knowledge of the business in which he is investing?
Sounds like taking a big chance to me and you have to be prepared to take the risks with the rewards if that is the case.
I am with Chris one.
Its true, but Enzo never said it
Too many E types
XK120 SUs
Too many E types
XK120 SUs
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#42 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
In his defence he was dealing with one of the premier classic car dealers in the world with an impressive CV. What he was not expecting was to be scalped on every purchase and sale with very high restoration and maintenance costs rolled in. Further he/JD was selling cars but taking others in p/x at worryingly high estimates all of which was managed by JD without full disclosure. In addition he was paying JD a 10% agency fee. It all came crashing down when he wanted to liquidate his assets after 2 years as he had the opportunity to buy back his old company. If he had waited until now to do the selling he most certainly would have shown a profit.
A friend of mine bought a McLaren F1 race car eight years ago and it was recently sold for six times what he paid for it.
A friend of mine bought a McLaren F1 race car eight years ago and it was recently sold for six times what he paid for it.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
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#43 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
Indeed gentlemen
Know your market
Robbie
Know your market
Robbie
Robbie 1962 3.8 Coupe OSG 1962 OTS ODG
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#44 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
Bloody hell! Tough crowd!
Surely nobody thinks this is an acceptable way of doing business. Why be critical of Mike Tuke for being conned?
I resent the people that see our hobby as a huge business or investment opportunity but criminal behaviour, no matter what the scale or who the victim is, is just that - criminal.
Tall poppy syndrome?
Regards
Surely nobody thinks this is an acceptable way of doing business. Why be critical of Mike Tuke for being conned?
I resent the people that see our hobby as a huge business or investment opportunity but criminal behaviour, no matter what the scale or who the victim is, is just that - criminal.
Tall poppy syndrome?
Regards
Stuart
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
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#45 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
A fool and his money are soon parted.
I agree that criminality should be punished and if proved in this case, punished harshly, but naked greed should not be excused.
I agree that criminality should be punished and if proved in this case, punished harshly, but naked greed should not be excused.
Chris '67 S1 2+2
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#46 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
Unfortunately, being greedy isn't a crime. Neither is being naive.
In this case it appears that one man's (Company's) greed led to criminal behaviour. Let's see how this plays out.
There's a saying that you can't con an honest person. Not sure whether I entirely agree with that but there must be at least a germ of truth in it.
I'd love our hobby to be free of these shysters causing spiralling values and cashing in on it but that doesn't seem too likely any time soon.
Regards
In this case it appears that one man's (Company's) greed led to criminal behaviour. Let's see how this plays out.
There's a saying that you can't con an honest person. Not sure whether I entirely agree with that but there must be at least a germ of truth in it.
I'd love our hobby to be free of these shysters causing spiralling values and cashing in on it but that doesn't seem too likely any time soon.
Regards
Stuart
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
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#47 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
I was fascinated to read the posts which suggested that the "investor" was at fault. This is, frankly, arrant nonsense . What took place was straightforward fraud on the part of the dealer who deliberately - and repeatedly - misrepresented the position to the client who had entrusted him ( for agreed fees let it be emphasised ) with the task of purchasing cars which he was told would be a sound investment. I may also say that some of the posts came close to - and may actually have crossed the line, of being defamatory of Mr Tuke
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#48 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
Christopher is a retired QC. Be careful what you post or some of you may be seeking his advice!
This was fraud and no one in their right mind would blame the victim. It could easily happen to any of us, maybe or maybe not on the same financial scale. I have to say I am dissapointed in some of the community's responses.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
Add your E-Type to our World Map: http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
Add your E-Type to our World Map: http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810
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#49 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
David and Christopher, I very much agree with you.
JD might be regarded as a premier restorer and dealer by some but this shows them in a totally different light
Geoff
JD might be regarded as a premier restorer and dealer by some but this shows them in a totally different light
Geoff
S2 FHC Light Blue
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration
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#50 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
Well it would have been sensible if he had taken some independent advice before spending all that money.
You are right of course, fraud is fraud. Interesting to see what transpires.
You are right of course, fraud is fraud. Interesting to see what transpires.
Its true, but Enzo never said it
Too many E types
XK120 SUs
Too many E types
XK120 SUs
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#51 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
If anyone had asked me I would have said JD were a reputable company - who knew or guessed?
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
Add your E-Type to our World Map: http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
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#52 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
Quite right, David.
Their glossy adverts in the major classic journals are very impressive. I have for some time though wondered why they never showed prices for their cars. Clearly, the price depended on who you are and what you know about the subject.
Unfortunately, there are such people in all walks of life. They aren't the first. Won't be the last.
Regards
Their glossy adverts in the major classic journals are very impressive. I have for some time though wondered why they never showed prices for their cars. Clearly, the price depended on who you are and what you know about the subject.
Unfortunately, there are such people in all walks of life. They aren't the first. Won't be the last.
Regards
Stuart
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
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#53 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
Last words (from me at least).
Never put all your eggs in one basket.
This is not just a proverb, it is a sensible rule which was built into every investment fund I've ever worked on. These rules limit, for example, the amount of a fund that could be invested in one asset, and the amount of a fund that could be invested in one class of assets. Spreading risks in this way may reduce the return to the investor by diluting a fund's stake in a specific asset that produces stellar returns, but it also reduces the loss when a specific asset turns out to be less a brilliant star and more a black hole. If any analyst had come to the investment committee with an investment that didn't conform to these simple rules, they'd have been sent away. (If they'd done it twice they'd have been asked to leave.)
There are other deeply personal reasons why I have little sympathy for business men who having worked hard building a successful enterprise, suddenly find themselves with obscene amounts of liquid wealth and do not think to seek advice on how to invest it sensibly. This may leave me a little more jaded than others, and certainly colours my opinion on the matter at hand.
As for the dentist come second hand car dealer, all of us have had 'dealings' with second hand car salesmen, and for me classic car dealers were no different. My experience leads me to hold that the popular reputation of these businessmen, far from being based on the fictitious Arthur Daley, is justly deserved in real life. However, I'll let the courts make the final judgement in this case.
Never put all your eggs in one basket.
This is not just a proverb, it is a sensible rule which was built into every investment fund I've ever worked on. These rules limit, for example, the amount of a fund that could be invested in one asset, and the amount of a fund that could be invested in one class of assets. Spreading risks in this way may reduce the return to the investor by diluting a fund's stake in a specific asset that produces stellar returns, but it also reduces the loss when a specific asset turns out to be less a brilliant star and more a black hole. If any analyst had come to the investment committee with an investment that didn't conform to these simple rules, they'd have been sent away. (If they'd done it twice they'd have been asked to leave.)
There are other deeply personal reasons why I have little sympathy for business men who having worked hard building a successful enterprise, suddenly find themselves with obscene amounts of liquid wealth and do not think to seek advice on how to invest it sensibly. This may leave me a little more jaded than others, and certainly colours my opinion on the matter at hand.
As for the dentist come second hand car dealer, all of us have had 'dealings' with second hand car salesmen, and for me classic car dealers were no different. My experience leads me to hold that the popular reputation of these businessmen, far from being based on the fictitious Arthur Daley, is justly deserved in real life. However, I'll let the courts make the final judgement in this case.
Chris '67 S1 2+2
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#54 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
Hi there,
In regard of sales price, I was astonished to read that the should have cost “only“ 400k GBP. This sounded to me
1.) Very attractive for such a car (albeit not having the money)
2.) Not sure where the profit would have been after purchasing the car and investing more than 5000 hours of work into the project. Not considering the parts needed
I have now had a source saying the asking price was significantly above 1.5 million GBP. This would be a totally different story.... and gosh must be the most expensive non-competion E-Type ever sold.....
In regard of sales price, I was astonished to read that the should have cost “only“ 400k GBP. This sounded to me
1.) Very attractive for such a car (albeit not having the money)
2.) Not sure where the profit would have been after purchasing the car and investing more than 5000 hours of work into the project. Not considering the parts needed
I have now had a source saying the asking price was significantly above 1.5 million GBP. This would be a totally different story.... and gosh must be the most expensive non-competion E-Type ever sold.....
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#55 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
I knew - not guessed. Remember my thread in 2011 (?) when JD took my car in for an insurance estimate and refused to release it until they were paid £950, with storage charges threatened? The estimate allegedly included a full geometry cbeck for which they were unable to give results... The insurance assessor said he’d never seen anything like it during his career. Thankfully, the company paid.
Yet despite this personal experience, my views had mellowed, given their support of and investment in, all manner of classic events. Pity they were possibly using other people’s money...
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas
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#56 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
Well, Peter, it does you credit that your views had mellowed. Mine hadn't, and I refused to go to any event where they were one of the sponsors, hence my non-attendance at XK70 .
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#57 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
When the Company you are dealing with and its assets are owned by a labyrinth of holding companies and the majority of its directors list their occupation as “fund manager” it makes you wonder how much of the hourly rate you are paying for your restoration is actually going into skilled labour.
I don’t mind sponsoring a few bacon butties, but probably can’t stretch to a showroom in Mayfair and the lavish lifestyles of the directors.
Some interesting reading that is in the public domain...
“About MR DEREK THOMAS HOOD
Mr Derek Thomas Hood holds 14 appointments at 14 active companies, has resigned from 4 companies and held 2 appointments at 2 dissolved companies. DEREK began their first appointment at the age of 32. Their longest current appointment spans 20 years, 4 months and 30 days at J D CLASSICS INTERNATIONAL LTD.
The combined cash at bank value for all businesses where DEREK holds a current appointment equals £0, a combined total current assets value of £449m with a total current liabilities of £176.7m and a total current net worth of £7.2m. Roles associated with Mr Derek Thomas Hood within the recorded businesses include: Director, Company Secretary”
I don’t mind sponsoring a few bacon butties, but probably can’t stretch to a showroom in Mayfair and the lavish lifestyles of the directors.
Some interesting reading that is in the public domain...
“About MR DEREK THOMAS HOOD
Mr Derek Thomas Hood holds 14 appointments at 14 active companies, has resigned from 4 companies and held 2 appointments at 2 dissolved companies. DEREK began their first appointment at the age of 32. Their longest current appointment spans 20 years, 4 months and 30 days at J D CLASSICS INTERNATIONAL LTD.
The combined cash at bank value for all businesses where DEREK holds a current appointment equals £0, a combined total current assets value of £449m with a total current liabilities of £176.7m and a total current net worth of £7.2m. Roles associated with Mr Derek Thomas Hood within the recorded businesses include: Director, Company Secretary”
Simon
1969 S2 OTS
1969 S2 OTS
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#58 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics
I fear, Simon, that the Fund managers are likely to be the biggest losers of all . They are partners in a Swiss based investment company called Charme II, who bought about 2/3 of the equity from Hood in c.2016 . Presumably what they thought they were buying into was a lot of valuable stock , since looking at the accounts these are really the only assets of any significance . How much of it actually did belong to JD , and what it was really worth, are two questions which I have no doubt they would like answering, as will Lloyds Bank
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