Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

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JD-JAG66
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#1 Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by JD-JAG66 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:50 pm

I require some help with registering my 1966 primrose yellow, LHD, 2+2 series 1 E type, imported from the US, in Italy.

The standard procedure is more or less as follows.
1. Register with a Classic Car club.
2. Apply via the club for membership of the “Asifed” = Italian Classic Car association.
3. Simultaneously, apply via the club for an “Asifed certificate of historical relevance”.
4. Bring your car to a mechanic – workshop that needs to provide a declaration – certificate that your car is roadworthy.

Send your documents to Asifed and wait. 2 months. Probably. :roll:

Receive above approval/registration with Asifed and then proceed as follows:
5. Have all non Italian language (my car is imported from the US) documents (Us registration documents – invoices…) translated via a “registered Translator”. Basically this person will bring your translated documents to court and in front of a judge, together with a witness, swear that he correctly translated the documents without falsify anything.
6. With all above documents required for registration in Italy, I can go to dedicated MOT station (+/- 40 miles away) where they will check my car, confirm all the paperwork and issue me with the documents to obtain a licence plate.
7. Apply for the licence plate by filling in additional documents, pay the annual classic car road tax and wait for the plate to become available .... So I can go and pick it up (have no idea if I can have the plate mailed)

I think I also require some homologation documents from Jaguar, which I will find out shortly.

If you are still with me, thanks!!

Apart from all of the above costing around 550£-600€, my problem is with item 3, obtaining the certificate of historical relevance, which requires the sending of a small booklet to “Asifed” in which you have provided your car’s specs and stapled pictures from all angles of your car, exterior – interior and engine, so they can check if your car is all original.

My car isn’t. I spoke to a representative of “Asifed” in charge of approving these applications, and she basically told me that I don’t stand a chance obtaining the certificate, considering the non-period mods to my car: MX5 Front seats & Mangoletsi – Jenvey injection system.

I argued that they accept/allow that in period the car did not have rear view mirrors or seatbelts, which I installed, nor did it have side indicators which have to be installed by Italian law. And the MX5 seats have headrests!

She suggested that I’d try anyway, because you never know... Telling other people to gamble 550£ comes easy to some I guess...

Anyway, I dug deeper and found out that I can register via a “unique model homologation” which can be done via the German TUV who have a local department here in Milan, Italy.

So I contacted them and got the feedback that I would have to take up residence in Germany (=not kidding), and try (no guarantee for success) to get my car registered via this “unique model” procedure. Costs? They couldn’t tell.

A quick search on the internet showed that obtaining this TUV homologation for a car modified with parts (=mangoletsi and jenvey) that have no ECE or TUV homologation, could be costing close to 10.000€. And that is not a typo.

Needless to say, I am desperate.

As far as I see it, I have 2 options.

Option 1 is to obtain some original black front seats and a complete original carburettor-throttle link system with air filter, install them and dismantle them again after the registration process to sell them on.
But this means, I might be in trouble later on with insurance companies, since the car I will insure will not be the car on the registration documents, so they can refuse to pay anything.

Option 2 would be to start a car selling business (I got this tip from a guy from down south here in Italy that got annoyed with trying the above standard procedure and never got his non-original cars to get registered.)
In that way I can get a garage plate. And don’t need to get any approval whatsoever. Not even an MOT. But I cannot really travel abroad. Bummer

I excluded moving to Germany as on option. No offence.
Nor did I consider registering the car in the UK even if the registration procedures seem easier, because once I want to bring the car to Italy, I would have to go through the above mentioned procedures anyway since the modifications would not be homologated as for the TUV process... so no point in trying.

However, before I actually start doing anything, some help please.

Has there ever been a fuel injected Jaguar E type in the sixties? Even for racing purpose?
Never heard of it, but if so, I can actually go and argue to the local Asifed that my mods are “period” (I know, no ECM programming back then... :wink: ) and get my car registered here in Italy.

If you think there is anything else that could get my car registered here in Italy, I would love to hear from it!

Come to think of it, for 26.000Euro I can have my car registered in Italy, by a company around 100 miles away from where I live, but they would have to convert it to electric to do so.... always better than having it sitting in the garage...but maybe some other time.

Looking forward to hearing from anybody!

Thanks
Jan
Jan Deurinck
Series 1 - 1966 - 2+2 - LHD - American Import
Si vales, bene est, ego valeo

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288gto
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#2 Re: Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by 288gto » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:22 pm

Hi Jan,


“Has there ever been a fuel injected Jaguar E type in the sixties? Even for racing purpose?”

Yes. Have a look here.....

http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7464

Put a race seat in it and say it was raced like that in 67/68

Simon
Simon
1969 S2 OTS

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mark10337
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#3 Re: Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by mark10337 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:59 am

Would it be possible to not register it as a "historic vehicle" - just a normal vehicle?
-Mark

1969 Series 2 OTS, Regency Red
'Life's to short to drive a boring car'

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politeperson
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#4 Re: Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by politeperson » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:48 am

Well it would only take a few hours to put a pair of Strombergs on for the test. I bet no one will notice the seats, in fact I bet they wont notice the fuel injection either!

If you dont have any carbs, these would do even if they need new diaphrams.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Collecteur-a ... SwRolberux

Then, when you have convinced the bureaucrats, put the fuel injection back on.
James

L.J.K. Setright was right.
"You just cant beat a good E-type"

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#5 Re: Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by mgcjag » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:58 am

Hi Jan......above is a very good option from James......im currently building a replica C type in the UK and the tests and registrations are quite complicated.....i usa a face book site called JDC replica facebook..guys from everywhere building and registering replicas......could be worth joining the site (free) and asking for ideas...as far as im aware in Italy the ASI is a registration path for historic vehicles that are as they left the factory....there must be other options and im sure the replica guys could help....Steve
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1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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malcolm
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#6 Re: Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by malcolm » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:08 am

I'd go with sticking a couple of stroms on+filter, register it, then when you re-install the injection tell the insurance company about the mods. The insurers aren't going to inform the authorities and have you de-registered, but you don't want to invalidate the insurance. Can you remove the headrests on the seats, to look just a little more period for the year of car?
Malcolm
I only fit in a 2+2, so got one!
1969 Series 2 2+2
2009 Jaguar XF-S

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#7 Re: Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by Heuer » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:16 am

Yes, the MX5 headrests can be simply pulled out leaving the seats looking like reupholstered 3.8 bucket seats. Fuel injection was fitted to all the LWE's so it was a period fitment. You should be able to buy (or borrow) a set of Stromberg's for little money as many owners convert the cars to SU's - Angus probably has quite a few sets on the shelf. Once registered you can do what you like with the car as long as you inform the insurance company of any changes. The insurance company will not inform the authorities.

Another alternative is to fit a set of SU's (several reconditioned sets on eBay for £750+) and sell the FI. Unless you are going racing the SU's will give you the same performance and look a lot better when you open the bonnet.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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#8 Re: Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by JD-JAG66 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:50 pm

Great feedback thanks everybody.

@288GTO thanks for the link.
@Heuer : "Fuel injection was fitted to all the LWE's so it was a period fitment" can you provide me with a link on where to find some more info? Or even just an address to write to?
Will most definetely talk to the ASI federation and see what they say once I gathered enough info to make a case.

Again, thanks!!
Jan Deurinck
Series 1 - 1966 - 2+2 - LHD - American Import
Si vales, bene est, ego valeo

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#9 Re: Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by Kember17 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:59 am

JD-JAG66 wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:50 pm

SNIP FOR BREVITY

Nor did I consider registering the car in the UK even if the registration procedures seem easier, because once I want to bring the car to Italy, I would have to go through the above mentioned procedures anyway since the modifications would not be homologated as for the TUV process... so no point in trying.

SNIP FOR BREVITY

Thanks
Jan
Jan,

If the information suggested here fails to provide a cost-effective solution, you might wish to reconsider the UK option. As you note, it is relatively easy to obtain a registration in the UK, and with a bit of notice I can lend you a pair of RHD headlights for the initial check...

Cars under forty years old need to undergo an MOT which can only be done at a UK garage, so I need to schlep them back once a year and get them done. However, owners with cars over the age of 40 can apply to exempt them from the MOT process. So once you got the vehicle registered, it need never actually go back to the UK. For peace of mind, you could put it through the revisione process to confirm its continued roadworthiness but not need to worry about getting bits of paper to prove it.

There are no residency requirements for obtaining a UK registration; you merely need a UK address to which correspondence and fines/notices of prosecution etc can be sent. If you have a reliable and willing friend in the UK, that should be sufficient. Obtaining insurance through a specialist should not be too problematic, and is in my experience much cheaper than the extortionate Italian rates.

I keep some cars in Italy on UK plates, and, of course, dutifully :wink: move them elsewhere on the Continent to get round the six month rule, as I can't register them there without becoming a resident, which would mean twice the number of tax forms.

If the car is going to be summer months only car, and you garage it, you would probably get away with it not leaving Italy at all. (FWIW, I have never been challenged by the Italian authorities as to how long my car has been in the country, although I have been when I left a car with a Swiss friend for a few months, but I think I was grassed up by an officious neighbour. Fortunately I could prove I was within time.)

Peter
Peter

1966 LHD US Import Series 1 2+2 (undergoing full restoration)

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#10 Re: Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by Heuer » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:03 pm

JD-JAG66 wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:50 pm

@Heuer : "Fuel injection was fitted to all the LWE's so it was a period fitment" can you provide me with a link on where to find some more info? Or even just an address to write to?
More info on the Lightweights here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_E- ... ght_(1963)

Porter wrote a book on the subject "Ultimate E-Type' which details each car and their specification.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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#11 Re: Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by christopher storey » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:23 pm

There are engine photos on pp 183,186 , 187, 202, 213, 217, 267, 345( probably the best ) , 350 of the Porter Ultimate E type book . For copyright reasons i will not post a photo of an engine pic without Heuer's say so, but I would have thought you can get permission from Philip Porter

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#12 Re: Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by JD-JAG66 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:08 pm

The thought of changing everything over just for the registration is still with me.
@Peter, the problem with registering via the UK is that I would have English plates on my car (as in obviuosly) and would have only 1 year to switch to the licence plates of the country of my residence aka Italy.
Insurance companies know that this is obligatory, and informed me on previous occasions (Mg Midget) that I would have only this long.
Basically no chance in renewing the insurance.
Or is simple terms, face the TUV homologation route while you can have an insurance and don't have to ship your car...joy.
Anyway, my lightweight fuel injection information is with the Asifed and they are checking if they can therefore accept it on a 2+2 LHD american import...

Again, thanks everybody. Will keep you posted.
Jan
Jan Deurinck
Series 1 - 1966 - 2+2 - LHD - American Import
Si vales, bene est, ego valeo

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#13 Re: Help wanted - Problem with registering in Italy - Mangoletsi Jenvey modifications

Post by Kember17 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:38 pm

Jan,

Understood. Sure, if you can get the Italian documents, that would be best by a mile.

Mimicking true Italian style, I was just voicing a work-around :lol:. I have known Italians and UK ex-pats who have had UK plated cars for years and who have insured them (as non-residents) with UK insurers but it is probably best not to expand too much on that topic in an open forum.

Peter
Peter

1966 LHD US Import Series 1 2+2 (undergoing full restoration)

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