Bad day for Jaguars

Talk about E-Types here

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christopher storey
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#1 Bad day for Jaguars

Post by christopher storey » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:24 pm

The H&H sale at Duxford ( or do I mean Donington ) yesterday threw up some very discouraging results. 2 or 3 Es , mostly US spec, did sell , but very much at the low end of estimates or below, but there were many more which did not. In fairness, most of them looked to be absolute rubbish and I am beginning to wonder just how desperate auction houses now are if they are prepared to broker this sort of stuff, but it is an indication that the market in Es in particular is at a very low ebb at present. It makes it look as though Tim did , if not well , at least reasonably in selling his FHC S1 . There was, however, a very nice 140FHC which went for c. £50K and one or two right off the beam results such as an Alfa 2600 DHC which fetched well into 6 figures - the sort of car which a few years ago you couldn't give away !

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JJC
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#2 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by JJC » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:33 pm

Best bet is to enjoy your E-Type, be it driving, restoring, or just going out to the garage to admire it for the millionth time. I never plan to sell mine, so not concerned with price. There are not many left, so no real way to judge the market. Off to buy one, or off to sell one, its always going to be a crap-shoot.

JC

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WM86
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#3 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by WM86 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:19 pm

Would you say there is a general cooling off in the market?

I live in hope that I can purchase one, despite having had my eye on one on eBay which will need a lot of work. The price is rather off putting for what appears to need doing based on 12 photos.

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Series1 Stu
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#4 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by Series1 Stu » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:38 pm

WM86 wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:19 pm
Would you say there is a general cooling off in the market?
Yes, but if you want one then go out and get one at a price you're happy to pay and then don't regret it, no matter what.

Make offers and wait to see what replies you get. Be patient and find the best one you think you can afford.

Regards
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'94 X300 XJR basket case

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Durango2k
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#5 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by Durango2k » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:41 am

Is it really a „Bad day“ when it fact it means that more people can enjoy an E-Type, and they are more meant „to be driven“ instead of „to be cleaned and stored for mor revenue“ ?

Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, Citroen SM 3.0, Concept Centaur MK1, Citroen 11 BL '54, Sinclair C5, Velosolex

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JerryL770
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#6 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by JerryL770 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:26 am

I certainly bought mine as somewhere better than the bank to park some money, but that was only one good reason.

It will appreciate over time and I'm sure going to enjoy it along the way. If one of my sons wants it when I cannot scoot it down the road, that's OK, else it will pay for a couple of weeks in the care home ....... I don't think :shock:
Jerome Lunt
1970 S2 FHC - Dark Blue, Red Interior, MX5 Seats

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cactusman
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#7 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by cactusman » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:19 am

The market has relaxed in my view.....brexit, loads of cars that need huge investment to get roadworthy, market adjustment....who knows....good news for those purchasing
and I think that is brilliant. I bought mine cos I wanted an e....never regretted it for a nanosecond....and it's still worth twice what I paid six years ago so what a bonus....probably the very early 3.8 cars are still fetching silly money but for the rest sanity has returned!
Julian the E-type man
1962 FHC
1966 MGB....fab little car too

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chrisfell
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#8 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by chrisfell » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:27 am

Is this a symptom that peak E-Type has passed?

For decades there was a steady stream of ‘new’ registrations of E-Type on the DVLA, about 50 cars each year were imported from the 60,000 cars originally exported. More recently, that number has been 150 or even 200 cars a year. At some time the market (for new entrants into the E-Type owner/investor market) will be saturated with new cars - more cars available than buyers interested in owning them.

Add this to a general slowdown in economic activity cause by, er.... other influences...., and there is a possibility of a perfect storm affecting the values of our cherished cars.

Once peak E-Type has been passed, prices of cars for sale will have to soften. Several long term E-Type owners of my acquaintance have sold in recent years, getting far more for their cars than they had ever dreamed. I suspect they sold at peak E-Type, and we are now in the softening phase.

This is not bad news for long term owners, rather the opposite. Softer valuations will mean lower annual insurance premiums. Softer valuations will encourage more have a go enthusiasts wanting to create and run reliable drivers cars and fewer financially motivated investors interested only in their collections of collectibles. There will be some grief. Recent purchasers will find their investments under water. Some resto projects might get put on hold. Some restoration businesses could find themselves exposed with projects abandoned, stage payments unpaid, project cars with no customers.

But I wouldn’t describe this as a bad day for Jaguars. Just part of the cycle of life for long term E-Type enthusiasts. It’s not as if we haven’t been here before.
Chris '67 S1 2+2

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1954Etype
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#9 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by 1954Etype » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:40 am

Interesting comments and perspective. If anyone is interested, here is what I am seeing.

1. There are plenty of bad cars that owners seem to think are worth a lot of money (they see a £300k Evolution E Type or Eagle, a CMC early car for >£250) and think their own 'run of the mill' car is worth that.
2. The only way you will recoup your restoration cost is by keeping the car for 5 years or more, driving it or showing it or whatever you like doing and then selling. You might make a pound you might lose a pound but what price the enjoyment you have had for the 5 + years.
3. Try buying a Series 1 Roadster. A good one. A good, complete one for restoration. The last one I was offered was £80k. Take it or leave it I was told.
4. Good Series 2 cars are still the best value (and the best car in my view). Again, try and find one.
5. Restoration costs are always going to be high whether you do it yourself or not. We have a lot of business from home restorers who need some help on the final leg. Parts are expensive (just bought 2 door skins for >£150 each.
6. I went through the cars at the HandH sale and some of the E Types on there were just scrap. No wonder they didn't sell.
7. One of the biggest issues is that a good, solid, complete and original car, ripe for restoration is going to be worth a premium. It is difficult to explain to someone that this £80k project is going to save you money later on during the process as you won't be spending a lot of body repair and you will always end up with a nicer car than one made up of repro/non original parts. A far better way than buying a cheap, rotten and incomplete car as a starting point.
8. Our customers will testify that we like our cars to be used. We only work with the best suppliers and parts available as we stand the best chance of achieving that. (We are moving away from one of the best builders and suppliers certain parts as we have had so many issues around quality and therefore reliability).
9. Finally (and please excuse my ramblings) a lot of cars don't go to market. They are sold quickly via friends and dealers who have customers waiting.

Just my thoughts FWIW.

Angus
Angus 65 OTS 1E11497. 67 FHC 1E33656

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Jeremy
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#10 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by Jeremy » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:25 am

:yeahthat:
A barrel-full of wisdom and experience from Angus distilled into an easily digested summary.
Jeremy
1967 S1 4.2 FHC

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AshM
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#11 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by AshM » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:50 pm

100% agree Jeremy.

Wise words from Angus as always.
Series 2 FHC 1970
1R 20607

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Durango2k
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#12 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by Durango2k » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:52 pm

I think that in my case I could easily re-coup my investment, if I forget my man - hours I spent into it.

At the moment I am about to touch 30.000 Euros, with buying tyres, rims, windshield. For a fully restored S 1 2+2 I‘d expect 45 tsd plus, so I should be safe.

If I put in my about 3000 hours in 11 years, not so. Even at 10 Euros an hour I would be lost, financially.

But I want to use and drive it, so I don‘t care. Massive bonus- I know The Beast in and out.

Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, Citroen SM 3.0, Concept Centaur MK1, Citroen 11 BL '54, Sinclair C5, Velosolex

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#13 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by Bert-Ola » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:48 pm

I bought my SIII OTS back in 1975 for 1.950£ I think long term keeping still are good for value.
SIII Roadster 1S1043

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politeperson
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#14 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by politeperson » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:43 pm

Carsten,

Have you ever wondered why project cars sell for more than they appear to be worth?

It is because many owners want to buy the work. They actually value the project.

They enjoy doing the build maybe more than driving the finished car.

You haven't spent 3,000 man hours on it.

The car has given you 3,000 hours of fun, and paid for itself as well.

That is the way I look at it.
James

L.J.K. Setright was right.
"You just cant beat a good E-type"

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Durango2k
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#15 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by Durango2k » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:18 pm

Well,

It is mostly fun. But, seriously, I do most of it in nightshifts, and in winter in my old shed, some parts are really no fun.

Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, Citroen SM 3.0, Concept Centaur MK1, Citroen 11 BL '54, Sinclair C5, Velosolex

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christopher storey
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#16 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by christopher storey » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:26 pm

What James says ( and it is clear Carsten agrees with him ) has a great deal going for it in many people's eyes . I spent 3500 hours on my FHC and loved every minute of it - I was very slow , was under no time pressure, and each part completed gave me a sense of achievement . I am :bigrin: now even slower - I have just spent most of today trying ( and so far failing ) to make a new part for my Mark IX

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Philk
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#17 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by Philk » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:02 pm

I think the above posts say it all. I dreamt of having a S1 E-type since a young age and count myself as very fortunate at having been able to achieve that ambition. If you have a passion for the car and treat it as a hobby then price/value has no real place (other than the need to insure the car at the correct level). I'm very aware I paid market price for my car just over two years ago but that procured me a rust-free, fully matching-numbers car which I have been able to overhaul/fine-fettle since then using this forum and other sources of information as research points. I have enjoyed every second of this. I have no intention of selling it for many years and, even if prices do dip during that time, that then means my next purchase will be correspondingly cheaper.

Personally, I have little or no time for "barn-finds" or some of the decayed near-wrecks that go through the auction houses since none of them can be driven and, ironically, 90% of their so-called originality will disappear by the time they've gone through the restoration process. Low auction prices merely reflect the cost that will need to be put into them simply to get them to a point of road-worthiness.
Phil
1964 S1 3.8 OTS

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Durango2k
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#18 Re: Bad day for Jaguars

Post by Durango2k » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:55 pm

Has anyone (except me) ever read „Zen or the art of maintaining a motorcycle“ ?

If not, do so.

Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, Citroen SM 3.0, Concept Centaur MK1, Citroen 11 BL '54, Sinclair C5, Velosolex

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