E-Type vs 250 GTO?

Talk about E-Types here

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Dad
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#1 E-Type vs 250 GTO?

Post by Dad » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:52 am

I'm currently reading Philip Porter's definitive e-type history. Understandably, given the context, he spends a lot of time comparing the development of the e-type with the Ferrari 250 GTO (and Testa Rossa, to a lesser extent), their performance at Le Mans, etc.

The e-type out-performs the 250 GTO in many categories, handles better (apparently; I've never driven a 250 GTO), is quicker, is just as well designed and made, has what seems to be generally regarded as a superior engine, blah, blah? And to top it all, is frequently referred to as the most beautiful car ever made.

I'm new to the world of classic cars, so I'm having trouble understanding how and why 250 GTOs from a similar period often go at auction for many millions of pounds, while you can pick up a very nice e-type for something like fifty to a hundred times less. Surely it can't only be something as simple as the numbers in existence? Is that really 'it'. Or am I missing something? Is it really all a huge pose?

Sorry if this is a stupid question.

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PeterCrespin
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#2 Re: E-Type vs 250 GTO?

Post by PeterCrespin » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:59 am

Dad wrote: Surely it can't only be something as simple as the numbers in existence?....Sorry if this is a stupid question.
Yes
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#3

Post by Dad » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 am

Steady on, old chap. I'm not sure if it really does qualify as a stupid question. I was probably being overly polite :?

I suppose this goes some way towards answering it, but what I get from this is that it all pretty much does boil down to numbers and a huge pose;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/cla ... tment.html

Obviously, opinion comes into play and I am in no position to suggest my opinion is of much value in this, so I turn to the experts. Most of them not under the Ferrari spell seem to be of the opinion that the e-type is a superior car.

So if there were 39 e-types left, they would be worth many millions each, I suppose.

Funny old world, eh?

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#4

Post by 1954Etype » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:06 am

Don't think Pete was confirming this is a stupid question, merely that your assumption is correct. BTW have you driven an Aston Martin DB4? I have and thought it was awful compared to my E type. Look at the prices of them!
Angus 67 FHC 1E33656

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#5

Post by Moeregaard » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:58 pm

I don't think anyone has ever been able to explain why the GTO brings the money it does. They were relatively cheap throughout the '60s, but by the end of the '70s its rise had begun. It's rarity is one obvious reason, although there were more obscure Ferraris built in smaller numbers. The GTO was conceived from the beginning as a race car; I don't believe Ferrari ever had plans to produce it in any quantity, bearing in mind that they were only building a few hundred Ferraris per year back then anyway.

Jaguar never had any "official" plans to race the E-Type, preferring instead to develop it as a fast, long-distance GT car. It was only after E-Types in private hands began cleaning up at club events that the Lightweight E-Type was conceived by the factory--and it never really got the development it deserved.

Everything I've read about the GTO says that it's a pretty miserable machine in terms of ride and comfort. It's noisy and hot inside, and is full of squeaks and rattles. When I win the lottery I'll do my own comparison :D
Last edited by Moeregaard on Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mark (Moe) Shipley
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Planning on getting E-Type No. 3 as soon as possible....

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#6

Post by Dad » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:55 pm

Sorry - yes, I didn't mean to sound as if I'd taken offence at Pete's answer :-) All good.

It's fascinating, isn't it, how humans obsess about rarity simply for the sake of it. Stamp and coin collecting has to be the ultimate. 'Penny Black syndrome'... The whole elitism thing. I thought the Chris Evans article was quite good, although obviously heavily tainted and clouded by a Ferrari obsession. I think that's what I'm really finding fascinating as I delve deeper into the book and the world of classic sports cars in general; a lot of it (especially regarding the Ferrari/Aston Martin/Mercedes magic thing) is not necessarily based upon quality or performance, but rather on affectation and the whims of elitist poseurs.

It's starting to look as if that's one of the central themes of the e-type that appeals to me; it had everything, in every department, that other cars of the time had (and more, in many cases), but cost a huge amount less. Something about it seems a lot more honest.

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#7

Post by Moeregaard » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:29 pm

The E-Type had two things going for it during its lifespan. First, it had an engine that was already highly developed and, second, it shared many mechanical components whose costs were amortized over the entire Jaguar lineup of saloons. Unfortunately, this placed the E-Type's in an area where it was accessible to many people who could afford the "price of admission," but not necessarily the cost of maintenance. Properly maintained, an E-Type is a very honest, reliable car. I drove my '65 FHC daily in Los Angeles traffic back in the mid-'80s, and never once needed a tow.
Mark (Moe) Shipley
Former owner '66FHC, #1E32208
Former owner '65FHC, #1E30036

Planning on getting E-Type No. 3 as soon as possible....

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#8

Post by Durango2k » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:45 pm

Another under- valued car is the Citroen SM. They made 12900, maybe 3000 are still with us, but they go for relatively low money, especially when you have driven one and personally seen and felt (!) what it can do and how it does it.

Still it is one of the BEST cars ever made - and I have driven a lot of cars in my life. It still beats modern cars in several aspects- suspension, steering, lights, brakes....

Carsten

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#9

Post by PeterCrespin » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:21 pm

Dad wrote:Steady on, old chap. I'm not sure if it really does qualify as a stupid question. I was probably being overly polite :?
So was I :-)

As Angus hinted, I was agreeing with all four questions in your penultimate paragraph, albeit I only quoted one of them. The fifth question was also cited to round out the quote, although anything and everything on this subject is opinion more than science. Opinions are ten a penny and worth about the same.

To give a fuller answer, in my own 0.1p's-worth, the thing you were missing is that there comes a point where ridiculous over-valuation becomes its own justification.

There are plenty of stocks and cars (and maybe stock cars) where valuation is rational and based on sensible criteria. There are others where emotion or fashion are the predominant yardstick. Up in the stratosphere where Astons, Ferraris and Bentleys play, there are enough people doing well out of the trade that nobody may have the wisdom for years yet to declare that the Emperor has no clothes. You can look back at old magazines and see that there have always been high-end cars and traders where, if you have to ask the price you can't afford it. With so few cars it only takes a few dozen rich souls worldwide to keep the prices high for ever, same as D-types will be.

You're on a hiding to nothing asking 'why?' questions and expecting solid answer for subjective stuff like this. The answers can always be boiled down to 'Because...' Followed by an opinion.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#10

Post by Dad » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:56 pm

This is all most informative. Cheers.

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#11

Post by daykrolik » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:16 am

I was at the auction today in New York City where a 1966 OTS went for $467,500, which I believe is an E Type record. On the other hand, I was interested to see a magnificent SJ (factory-supercharged) Duesenberg, a very rare car and a personal favorite, go for far less than other cars which are not, in my opinion, nearly its equal. There are so many subjective factors and financial factors for those who have an interest in promoting a certain car or genre of cars. If it came down to inherent quality, or even scarcity, it would be far simpler.

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#12

Post by Simon P » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:26 am

daykrolik wrote:I was at the auction today in New York City where a 1966 OTS went for $467,500
Yikes!! You're not kidding....

http://www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1063773

:shock:

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#13

Post by timhum » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:37 am

Would a more appropriate comparison be between the GTO and the factory lightweight cars? Both were built in small numbers for a particular purpose and with their associated racing histories and rarity have become valuable.
If we compare a Ferrari from the era of mass production, say from the 308 onwards, their value is not dis-similar to that of our 'everyday' E types.
Tim
Tim
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#14

Post by 1954Etype » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:31 pm

Wow! And it sold for that much with front bumpers all over the place!
Angus 67 FHC 1E33656

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#15

Post by Moeregaard » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:32 pm

It's amazing how big the numbers get at some of these auctions. I didn't see anything about this Series One OTS that would command that sort of cash, and I'd be surprised if the winning bidder doesn't experience some buyer's remorse at the end of the day. We're seeing another feeding frenzy not unlike the one we had at the end of the 1980s, and my prediction is that the bubble will burst sometime in the next year or two, bringing prices down to more realistic levels. The $467K E-Type will most likely never be driven regularly, but instead languish in some collection, alongside a bunch of other classics relegated to the same fate.
Last edited by Moeregaard on Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mark (Moe) Shipley
Former owner '66FHC, #1E32208
Former owner '65FHC, #1E30036

Planning on getting E-Type No. 3 as soon as possible....

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#16

Post by Dave K » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:44 pm

We should sell our E-Types in the nest year and then wait and buy them back at half the price :D knowing my luck the prices would keep going up and I'd never be able to afford one again.

Dave

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#17

Post by Mark Gordon » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:09 pm

I'm going to have to sell mine because if that one is worth $467,500, then mine is worth at least $300,000, maybe more and I can't afford the insurance! Of course, mine is cream and not the premium black. :wink:
Mark

67 OTS 1E14988, 2015 Camry XSE

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#18

Post by Moeregaard » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:56 pm

I just checked with xkedata.com this morning, and the E-type "body count" has passed 15,500--more than 20% of total production. When you consider that there are probably a few thousand more out there not recorded on Roger's site, you realize that E-Types are not particularly rare. My crystal ball (which is usually clear as mud) says that a lot of speculators will be taking a flogging in a couple of years. While I hate to see anyone lose their financial a*rse, the silver lining to this cloud is that some very well restored cars will be coming up once sanity returns to the marketplace.
Mark (Moe) Shipley
Former owner '66FHC, #1E32208
Former owner '65FHC, #1E30036

Planning on getting E-Type No. 3 as soon as possible....

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#19

Post by Durango2k » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:48 pm

It?s all about the stupid government and printing money at the speed of light. You have to compensate inflation - look ad the DOW and DAX figures....

But, in reality, these are all not REAL values- they?re somewhat blown up.

I am waiting for that needle moment to happen...

Carsten

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#20

Post by timhum » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:02 pm

Carsten, what inflation, its 2.2%. low interest rates are probably the driver for stimulating investment in 'alternative assets'. Surely the 'real' price is the price that cars are being bought and sold although the car in question does look rather toppy. On the other hand this was said a few years ago when a great convertible was selling for ?50k.
As enthusiasts, who already own an e Type, who cares about prices, lets just enjoy them and our children car can eventually worry about their real value.
Tim
1965 S1 fhc

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