S1 vs S2/3

[chrisp]

It seems strange to me. The series 2 seems to be so unloved, despite having better brakes, better cooling, a better gearbox and better seats than the series 1.

I?d agree that the enclosed headlights and dainty sidelights are lot prettier on the S1, but is that enough to make such a difference in value and perception? I know the goofy panel, less pretty headlamps and frankly horrible rear lights on the S2 are not as elegant as those on the S1 (though more practical and probably safer?), but is that really the reason?

I?m used to the idiot press going all moist over the S1, and sneering at the S2, but even our esteemed club has fallen into the same trap. I would have expected better. The club magazine cover has never, in my time as a member, shown a series 2 ? the only non-series 1 was a series 3!

Why is this? Are we all using the wrong deodorant?

Chris


yes, of course I have a series 2...

[cactusman]

I agree. No idea why the S2 is not as regarded as it should be. Has to be said that of late values do seem to have risen.

However many of the issues with early series1 cars are easily and discretely addressed and I think most would agree that the changes to the lights and bumper heights, while probably good from a practicality point of view, did not improve the flowing line of the car. Hence S1 cars will I suspect, always be at a premium.

Not sure how long you have had the magazine but to be fair the absolutely brilliant "seduced in seconds" series by Linda Jackson features her S2 being ably restored by her and her "chief mechanic" . Don't think the series is finished although I think she has taken a winter break so completion of her story may well appear in 2016.

If you have a series 2 car it is well worth reading her long series. Maybe get in touch with the club and get back issues....although there are a lot of articles!

[richard btype]

Chris

Apart from the fact that you have mentioned most of the probable reasons, for myself (and it can only be a personal issue) - the original design was not bettered it only appeared due to legislation/compromise.

And although one does not use the improved performance potential of the S1 cars, it can't have done jaguar any favours as the years passed that when each later model appeared they always seemed to be getting slower and heavier according to contemporary reports?

They then had to fit a V12 to regain its credentials but by then it really was bigger and heavier!

if you love it that is all that matters!

[cactusman]

Yes...well documented that US regs dictated the changes that converted the sublime lines of the series 1 to the series 2. Being an owner of a series 1 I am entirely biased but I will admit that to me the series 2 is not the epitome of visual perfection that is the series 1.

As with so very many cars, "improvement" rarely improves. I think most can at least agree that while the series two was almost certainly a better car to drive, especially at night, visually it was far from an Improvement.

The series three was overweight and pot bellied. No longer a sports car although a grand tourer would be a good descriptor.

As Quentin Willson put it in his cars the star program on the beeb ages ago...modernity murdered a masterpiece.

If anyone wants a potted history then the prog is available on YouTube...worth a watch.

At the end of they day though, what ever you have, drive it. Enjoy it and feel blessed that you own an E type!!!

[mgcjag]

Hi Chris....when you mention " our esteemed club " you realise that the forum does not belong the the e type club....you do not need to be a member to join the forum and vise versa.....there are quite a few registeted on the forum that are not e club members......dont even let the 2+2 members here you thinking that S2s are hard done by...they always think they are the poor relations......maybee you should bring up the front cover issue with the Etype club even ask if they have a list of number of members v models they could publish

[christopher storey]

I have had both an S1 and an S2 for over 20 years and thus I have lengthy experience of both . The S1 is prettier , but it does have its shortcomings in the driving department, and there is no doubt in my mind that the S2 is a more competent car for lengthy use , and, if you had never seen an S1 , would you ever really complain about the looks of an S2? The S1 also has a 2 shortcomings directly related to its looks which have to be put into the equation : -

1.Its headlights are utterly useless, and there is virtually nothing which can be done to improve matters

2. Even more serious, its rear lights in modern traffic conditions are far too weedy, and this radically increases the chances of a rear end shunt . Incidentally, in my opinion the unsatisfactory looks of the rear of the S2 are nothing to with the lights - it is the square number plate and ramshorn exhaust which are so unsightly, and fortunately those are easily got rid of

Further, the brakes on the S1 , compared with those ( Girling) on the S2 are well below par. You may never find out about this until you experience what , as a former pilot, I call the rejected take-off situation : getting well into an overtaking manoeuvre - which of course on an E usually involves a considerable gain in speed - and then finding you must bail out of it . It is the unexpected need for sudden and heavy braking which finds the Dunlops out - however well maintained they just do not provide sufficient braking effort . The only real cure for this is Coopercraft

Finally, the cooling of the S2 is infinitely superior in every way

Just one final observation on looks - if you are into 2+2 cars, the S2 is far and away the nicest looking because of the steeper slope to the windscreen. Indeed, with an S2 2+2 I find you always have to look twice to see whether it is an FHC or a 2+2

So , take your choice . I love both of mine, but the S2 is more practical in modern traffic conditions

[Simon P]

A lot of people think Series 1s can't be bettered.

But then again, a lot of people think One Direction can't be bettered.

'Nuff said....

[ernie]

I am an owner of an S2. I purchased it after losing out on a prospective S1 purchase. I agree that the S1 looks slightly more stylish due to headlights and rear lamp treatment. As for difference re the sze of the"mouth"..I dont honestly notice it.
I am hoping to use my S2 for touring and to be driven. Its going through a full nut and bolt rebuild with some mods to make it more suitable for distance driving (in my personal view). I am lucky as the car is in bits I can do something about the aspects of the s2 design that I would like to amend. Firstly I am fitting a headlamp cover kit, which has been designed by Marek, and should provide a better visual look (in my eyes) combined with optinum lighting (more forward, direct wired and modern headlamps). The rear lights will be modified and decluttered along with changing the number plate and deleting the SS number plate valence etc. These mods have been well dcoumented on the forum and do clean up the rear lines of the car.
So for me I get the best of both worlds...nothing wrong with the standard S1 nor S2 I just wanted the car to be personalised for me...just the same if I had started with an S1. To me the car is beautiful in no matter what flavour...just wanted to make it mine....and optimise the driving experience whilst keeping a high level of authenticity ie keeping the brakes steering and suspension pretty standard
For those who are interested I am sure that Angus will publish an overview of the car when it is finished together with some of the mods. Looking forward to meeting some of you this summer, when its back o the road. Oh and many many thanks to all of you who have provided such great advice and support it is really appreciated. Finally all th emods are easily reversible- even the headlamp covers..and original parts will be kept.

[cactusman]

I agree that the S1 front lights are all but useless although with halogen bulbs they can be made useable...although not at 150 mph!!!

The rear light output and thus visibility can be dramatically improved by fitting LED bulbs. I did this and my rear lights are now far brighter than with filament bulbs and use less current too... Thoroughly recommended improvement. The bulbs are now readily available.

[Tony]

Surley reason is the same as the side locking bonnet version S1 is far more desired than the flat floor version of The S1 and the flat floor is far more desirable than a none flat floor S1 and so on with the Series 2 and series 3.
For some reason people like to have the first built or most rare and will pay serious money to have them. It does not matter the later cars are better to drive, handle and are safer.
All collectors or enthuiasts put a lot on rarity. As far as the general public are concerned all E Types are beautiful. Personally I do like the S1 the best as I feel it has not been tampered with to satisfy the US market. Others may disagree. To quote Kenny Everitt "it's all a matter of Taste"

[BRM]

I agree with Tony. To be honest, until I suddenly found myself able to afford an E type about four years ago, I was like the rest of the general public. I didn't know the difference between an S1 and an S2 - an E type was an E type.

I have to agree that the S1 is the most attractive car to look at, being the purest form of the design. It is perfection and any change is bound to have a detrimental effect. For that reason it will always be the most desirable. When I bought my car I could just have afforded one but in the end bought an S2 because it was so much better value for money. I just couldn't ignore the difference in price. Now I've had it a couple of years, I don't spend my life wishing I had an S1. I have improved the looks of my car by doing the usual rear end modifications and I just love it for what it is.

Strangely in the Austin Healey world, the opposite seems to be true of values. I have a 3000 mk1, the original basic version, sidescreens, build-it-yourself hood etc and being a 2 seater is actually quite rare - most were 2+2. And yet the cars which are most in demand are the final mk3 version with wind up windows, proper folding hood and more comfortable interior.

[drcarrera]

Surley reason is the same as the side locking bonnet version S1 is far more desired than the flat floor version of The S1 and the flat floor is far more desirable than a none flat floor S1 and so on with the Series 2 and series 3.
For some reason people like to have the first built or most rare and will pay serious money to have them. It does not matter the later cars are better to drive, handle and are safer.
All collectors or enthuiasts put a lot on rarity. As far as the general public are concerned all E Types are beautiful. Personally I do like the S1 the best as I feel it has not been tampered with to satisfy the US market. Others may disagree. To quote Kenny Everitt "it's all a matter of Taste"

With the early S1s I also think rarity is an issue in the pricing.

Thing is, there were far less S11s built than S1s so on rarity they should be worth more as well! (not that I've a vested interest or anything ).

Personally I think the only areas the S11 is inferior to the S1 is in the rear aesthetics, the switch panel and the cam covers. In every other respect it's either on a par with or superior to the S1.

[Heuer]

Personally I think the only areas the S11 is inferior to the S1 is in the rear aesthetics, the switch panel and the cam covers.

And that can be easily changed: viewtopic.php?t=3359

[richard btype]

Actually with this S2 image it can be seen that there is very little difference in the (metal) bodywork, it is purely the lights and bumper that are insensitive, the lamps are out of proportion (far too large) and the continuous bumper looks like it has been borrowed from another car entirely?.

While on the subject of rear lamps they look very much the same as fitted to the Lotus Elan Sprint and did little to improve the rear appearance of that car, it is all about proportion. We can at least get some help with lighting these days from the brighter bulbs available these days.

The greater slope on the later windscreen however would I believe have improved the appearance of the series 1

[PeterCrespin]

Actually with this S2 image it can be seen that there is very little difference in the (metal) bodywork, it is purely the lights and bumper that are insensitive, the lamps are out of proportion (far too large) and the continuous bumper looks like it has been borrowed from another car entirely?.

While on the subject of rear lamps they look very much the same as fitted to the Lotus Elan Sprint and did little to improve the rear appearance of that car, it is all about proportion. We can at least get some help with lighting these days from the brighter bulbs available these days

Ah the benefits of a 20:20 Retrospectroscope. One of the few E-type memories I can recall from my yoof* was seeing my first S2 in traffic and thinking how sleek and modern the wrap-around bumpers looked, and even the big lights looked bolder and more modern at the time.

Yes those lights are Lotus, yes the stainless plinth looked a bit naff on a dark car, but on my current silver FHC neither look as awkward and certainly don't draw the eye the same way.

Pete
* Does anyone recall the Tomorrow's World episode where Raymond Baxter waxed lyrical about the improved safety of the S2 open headlights and other changes? I did look for the episode a year or so back, but no luck.

[Mark Gordon]

That's gotta be a younger man's perspective, Pete. I remember when I first saw the Series 2, I thought that they had ruined the looks of the car. Try as I might, I still can't bring myself to admiring the later cars over the Series 1's. You were still a toddler when the Series 2's came out and you didn't know any better.

[PeterCrespin]

That's gotta be a younger man's perspective, Pete. ...You were still a toddler when the Series 2's came out and you didn't know any better.

Yeah. They all looked cool in stationary traffic, from the saddle of a bicycle at that age :-)

[Michaelg]

I've only just seen this thread, being newish here.

I have an S1 1966 FHC 4.2 and an S2 1969 OTS both original RHD. The latter car was John Coombs' personal E Type that he sold me just before he died. He owned it for 31 years. Both he, and Mike MacDowel, who also drove it, told me that he was very fond of it and it was his favourite car out of all the variations, and it is a delight to drive.

Both the cars are very pretty, but in different ways, but for driving the S2 is streets ahead of the S1, and I use it frequently in most conditions except salt.

[Hugo]

Personally I think the only areas the S11 is inferior to the S1 is in the rear aesthetics, the switch panel and the cam covers.

And that can be easily changed: viewtopic.php?t=3359

The picture you posted of the back of the S II (which doesn't appear in my reply) looks better than the original, but to me it just looks wrong; everything about the rear profile of E Type is flat and wide - except those rer lamps, which are square and boxy. They look like an after-thought. Completely the wrong shape for the topography of the car. I have half an idea in my mind that, when my S II finally starts going back together, I might try to incorporate the rear lamps in the bumper itself. It's the sort of thing the Custom harley builders do in the States. Cut a hole in the bumper and fair in some LEDs. (ducks to avoid a barrage of rotten fruit!).

[Hugo]

Same story with the Mini, innit? They started out with a beautiful car and with every 'improvement' made it worse. Of course the flat-floor / outside bonnet catch E Types are the most valuable, but nobody is going to say those features make it a better car. Quite the reverse. People are strange.