Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
#41 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
A great report thank you very much. I am not sure what collective substance RM Sothebys had administered to the buyers but it does seem a pretty unique situation. Either way, a great endorsement for the interest in our hobby. And a few more customers for the various specialist companies out there I suspect.
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#42 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Thanks for making it worth writing lads.
Regarding Andrew's last comment, yes indeed, we were joking that there's going to a big surge in work for car-restorers.
Even my bank manager, whom I'd been to see last week to get the necessary guarantees etc, and who was quite agog at the sight of the "newspaper" RMS had produced - sent me an email this morning saying "alors, alors, how did it go then ? ? !", and "after your visit" and "following discussions with a mate this weekend" etc etc "I'm going to look for an old car too !!
Where's the next auction for him ?
Regarding Andrew's last comment, yes indeed, we were joking that there's going to a big surge in work for car-restorers.
Even my bank manager, whom I'd been to see last week to get the necessary guarantees etc, and who was quite agog at the sight of the "newspaper" RMS had produced - sent me an email this morning saying "alors, alors, how did it go then ? ? !", and "after your visit" and "following discussions with a mate this weekend" etc etc "I'm going to look for an old car too !!
Where's the next auction for him ?
Rory
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
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#43 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
"And all you got was an invoice, no log-book, no chassis plate even."
What did the auctioneers or catalogue say about this, Rory? Having an invoice or receipt to say you paid money for an object may mean you didn't personally steal it but doesn't prove it's legit? Did RM supply VINs for any of the Es? Did you get VINs or dataplate pix? As many as poss (and everybody's here) need to go on XKEData.com to inform unaware future buyers.
Makes you think though - if even lack of an ID is no barrier to spending serious money on a car and then selling it for top dollar via a major auction house, who needs an ID? Seems we should all be afraid of losing ours, if four drilled pop rivets and a removed plate is all it takes to sell them on! That way you can't even check them easily on XKEData.
Pete
What did the auctioneers or catalogue say about this, Rory? Having an invoice or receipt to say you paid money for an object may mean you didn't personally steal it but doesn't prove it's legit? Did RM supply VINs for any of the Es? Did you get VINs or dataplate pix? As many as poss (and everybody's here) need to go on XKEData.com to inform unaware future buyers.
Makes you think though - if even lack of an ID is no barrier to spending serious money on a car and then selling it for top dollar via a major auction house, who needs an ID? Seems we should all be afraid of losing ours, if four drilled pop rivets and a removed plate is all it takes to sell them on! That way you can't even check them easily on XKEData.
Pete
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas
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#44 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Peter how many even know of xkedata.......anyone that already knows wouldnt be buying without full proof/docs
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#45 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Most of the cars did have their Italian log-books, or RMS were confident of getting copies for them and said so ; the "good" FHC I referred to was the only one, I think, that had no chassis plate, and there were not even any holes to fit one as that area of the car had been renewed - I actually found that reassuring as if you were nervous about a dodgy car you would want to impose an identity at every turn, wouldn't you ?
Certainly I would advise anyone rebuilding or restoring their car to seize some opportunity to engrave or water-cut some discreet sheet-steel element with their chassis number, out of easy sight but accessible ; I really regret not doing this to the MiniVan roll-cage when I rendered it inseparable from the rest of the car during the rebuild.
I asked the same question as you, Peter, and was told that the Bill Of Sale came in the name of the Italian State and that this gave you Clear Title - and subsequent debate could only be between the "claimer" and the State ?
Of all the (informed) industry commentators and market-analysts I spoke to, there was not a single muttered aside about dodgy provenance or identity-doubts, yet with 600-odd cars/bikes passing through the room I would have expected a fair amount of this ?
None of the cars I looked at appeared to have had any trickery applied to engine numbers, the general state of decay would have made it difficult to disguise that, and chassis numbers are so difficult to pronounce on given the ease with which front frames are changed, and the difficulty in stamping - nicely - any re-stamp without arranging for a proper internal-anvil arrangement to remove the bounce from the tube.
My car actually has had NO numbers stamped on the front tubes since 1989, when they were replaced, and I'm not even sure how to go about doing anything about it without it shouting out "make-over" !
The "good" black FHC I referred to was lot #579 and someone had already posted the data for this car in September 2016 on xkedata.
I would guess this could only have been done by someone from RMS since by that date nobody else would have had access to the car nor any interest in its provenance.
The 1E33870 hammered on the (new) front frames ties in with the model, but there was no way of knowing - on the spot - whether the matching head/block numbers 7E 11081-9 were the original engine.
Anyone know whether you can search for an engine number on xkedata ? I know what mine should be and would be interested to know if it ever resurfaced.
PS - didn't look at the XK-s present, sorry, know nothing about these cars.
Certainly I would advise anyone rebuilding or restoring their car to seize some opportunity to engrave or water-cut some discreet sheet-steel element with their chassis number, out of easy sight but accessible ; I really regret not doing this to the MiniVan roll-cage when I rendered it inseparable from the rest of the car during the rebuild.
I asked the same question as you, Peter, and was told that the Bill Of Sale came in the name of the Italian State and that this gave you Clear Title - and subsequent debate could only be between the "claimer" and the State ?
Of all the (informed) industry commentators and market-analysts I spoke to, there was not a single muttered aside about dodgy provenance or identity-doubts, yet with 600-odd cars/bikes passing through the room I would have expected a fair amount of this ?
None of the cars I looked at appeared to have had any trickery applied to engine numbers, the general state of decay would have made it difficult to disguise that, and chassis numbers are so difficult to pronounce on given the ease with which front frames are changed, and the difficulty in stamping - nicely - any re-stamp without arranging for a proper internal-anvil arrangement to remove the bounce from the tube.
My car actually has had NO numbers stamped on the front tubes since 1989, when they were replaced, and I'm not even sure how to go about doing anything about it without it shouting out "make-over" !
The "good" black FHC I referred to was lot #579 and someone had already posted the data for this car in September 2016 on xkedata.
I would guess this could only have been done by someone from RMS since by that date nobody else would have had access to the car nor any interest in its provenance.
The 1E33870 hammered on the (new) front frames ties in with the model, but there was no way of knowing - on the spot - whether the matching head/block numbers 7E 11081-9 were the original engine.
Anyone know whether you can search for an engine number on xkedata ? I know what mine should be and would be interested to know if it ever resurfaced.
PS - didn't look at the XK-s present, sorry, know nothing about these cars.
Rory
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
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#46 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Great report Rory and thanks for taking the time to post it. Fascinating results!
Angus 67 FHC 1E33656
61 OTS 875047
61 OTS 875047
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#47 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Thank's Rory it was a great novel to read......
Yves, happy XKE 63 fhc , w113 280sl owner
Looking for a OTS 4.2 serie 1....! and now have found a fhc xk 140
Looking for a OTS 4.2 serie 1....! and now have found a fhc xk 140
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#48 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Maybe so long as the car stays in Italy. If the actual ownership was to be disputed, I wonder how that would hold up in another country, such as the US.rfs1957 wrote: I asked the same question as you, Peter, and was told that the Bill Of Sale came in the name of the Italian State and that this gave you Clear Title - and subsequent debate could only be between the "claimer" and the State ?
Clive, 1962 Coupe 860320
(sold)
(sold)
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#49 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Bonhams have a couple of e types up for auction on Dec 7th and one of the original lightweight cars goes under the hammer in Jan in the U.S.. be interesting to see what they fetch...
Julian the E-type man
1962 FHC
1966 MGB....fab little car too
1962 FHC
1966 MGB....fab little car too
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#50 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
The prices in Milan defy all logic when you look what has been sold recently at auction.
https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/196 ... -roadster-
£171.000
Looks pretty exceptional to me, and way below prices we saw 2 years ago ?
https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/jag ... s1-ots-4-2
£146.250
Same sentiment.
http://www.historics.co.uk/buying/aucti ... pe.aspx?p=
£130.000
Looks fantastic value for money, if I'd been at Donnington I'd have raised my hand.
Are these cars as good as they were hyped ?
All I could see in Milan was the heart-ache and $$$$$$ and the ticking of the years-clock for the new owners, when they could have had one of these 3 cars that, alongside what they bought, are positively cheap.
https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/196 ... -roadster-
£171.000
Looks pretty exceptional to me, and way below prices we saw 2 years ago ?
https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/jag ... s1-ots-4-2
£146.250
Same sentiment.
http://www.historics.co.uk/buying/aucti ... pe.aspx?p=
£130.000
Looks fantastic value for money, if I'd been at Donnington I'd have raised my hand.
Are these cars as good as they were hyped ?
All I could see in Milan was the heart-ache and $$$$$$ and the ticking of the years-clock for the new owners, when they could have had one of these 3 cars that, alongside what they bought, are positively cheap.
Rory
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
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#51 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Rory, clearly you are blind to the Emperor's wonderful new wardrobe. The commission sellers tell us the tailoring is exquisite and the fit is simply divine. Only a cynic would suggest his Imperial Excellency was in fact butt-naked...
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas
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#52 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23598/ ... =90&page=1
Nice car, Bonham's Bond Street on December 4th ? Wonder what penalty it suffered for the modifications ?
PS - Looking at this one, so pleased I did the extra work to hide my servo underneath the carbs in place of the vacuum tank, and it still leaves me room for my under-development tool-chest ; this same servo is used on the brand-new Cobras coming out of http://www.ac-automotive.com/en.html ............... as I found out when I had one up on the lift recently.
Nice car, Bonham's Bond Street on December 4th ? Wonder what penalty it suffered for the modifications ?
PS - Looking at this one, so pleased I did the extra work to hide my servo underneath the carbs in place of the vacuum tank, and it still leaves me room for my under-development tool-chest ; this same servo is used on the brand-new Cobras coming out of http://www.ac-automotive.com/en.html ............... as I found out when I had one up on the lift recently.
Rory
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
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#53 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
You all enjoyed my sleuthing at Milan, now it's pay-back time.
I have to stamp my chassis-number on the front picture frame as all the front tubes were changed in about 1990, and the new frame never got stamped.
Now it's off and I have made a decent anvil to get underneath the "U" and give the punches some real bounce.
However, being used to more effete 2-wheeled vehicles I can now see that my 5mm number punches are going to look a bit weedy .........
Something tells me that I saw 7mm height as an appropriate size, which seems highly unlikely already, and which anyway appears to be unobtainable.
The German firm BGS make tools that I've always been impressed by, and they have 6mm or 8mm sets for about a tenner, preposterously cheap I agree, but they will do me for this one-off job.
Can anyone proffer informed advive about what size punches I should go for ?
I fancy 8mm as being more authoritative.
I have to stamp my chassis-number on the front picture frame as all the front tubes were changed in about 1990, and the new frame never got stamped.
Now it's off and I have made a decent anvil to get underneath the "U" and give the punches some real bounce.
However, being used to more effete 2-wheeled vehicles I can now see that my 5mm number punches are going to look a bit weedy .........
Something tells me that I saw 7mm height as an appropriate size, which seems highly unlikely already, and which anyway appears to be unobtainable.
The German firm BGS make tools that I've always been impressed by, and they have 6mm or 8mm sets for about a tenner, preposterously cheap I agree, but they will do me for this one-off job.
Can anyone proffer informed advive about what size punches I should go for ?
I fancy 8mm as being more authoritative.
Rory
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
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#54 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Hi Rory...recently stamped up a data plate for my C type build in aluminium......was dissapointed with some of the letters/ numbers looking different sizes.....the number 7 and 0 looking larger than the others with my cheap set...so.borrowed a good quality set...so my advice would be to practice on thin aluminium sheet first to ensure numbers stamp to your liking.....also getting numbers straight was difficult......i first used a piece of bar clamped in place as a ruler to rest each punch on thinking this would give a straight line...it didnt becaus each number/digit was not cut central on the punch end......done it freehand......so practice first....Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#55 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Rory : have a word with Andy at Hutsons as he has the ( I think) correct sets for these . 0044 484 669052
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#56 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
... just choose to use a number which does not contain a 7 or a 0
Carsten
Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650
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#57 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
I had an original Jaguar set of punches: viewtopic.php?p=5099#p5099
Rory - let me know if you want to borrow them and I will see what I can do.
Rory - let me know if you want to borrow them and I will see what I can do.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
Add your E-Type to our World Map: http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
Add your E-Type to our World Map: http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810
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#58 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Data plate stamps are much smaller than frame stamps Steve. And sub-assembly stamps are smaller again (such as competition radiator/oil cooler data plate stamps.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas
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#59 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Hi Peter...Its for the IVA test..so has to have specific info meet DVLA regs.....Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#60 Re: Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ?
Got distracted and missed these updates.
David, have emailed you.
David, have emailed you.
Rory
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
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