New To Doors, does this look right please ?

[rfs1957]

First - an admission.

I just HAD to make a Door-Jig, it was "plus fort que moi" as you polyglots will understand.

I couldn't see any reference on the Forum to something like this so went ahead and made one. Hopefully nobody will now go and find me a previous posting ................



As far as I can tell it'll work on both doors, watch this space when I try to do the RH one.

There were 50+ years of tarred anti-drum material plus half a pint of hardened Waxoyl and all the remnants of the PO's restoration (dust, paint over-blow, dropped nuts and bolts) sculling around inside these so wanted a better way to work on them than laying them on carpet on the bench.



By introducing a U-section into the area that clamps in the vice, it provides a certain degree of fail-safe and what-happens-if -you-don't-tighten-it-enough security.



So, excuses for actually doing anything to the doors now out of the way, can someone advise me over these considerations please - as I'm not sure what some of this is really meant to look like :



Q1 : Is that trim correct, and should the plate underneath look like this ?



Q2 : Do the rivets that hold this top-panel on have two distinct functions as on mine ? Some are just fitted through the panel and hold small buttons that locate the chrome trim, and others go through into the door skin and hold that panel in place. The chrome trim is therefore NOT currently held in on the rectangular-type retainers that I found on the main door trim panel.





Q3 : is the inside wiper felt strip indeed meant to be screwed to the above-mentioned top-panel by these small CSK screws and nuts, or is there another way ?







Q4 : Is this odd alloy block a Jaguar part or an oddity or a botch, and how many screws are meant to hold it in place ?





Q5 : These brackets were holding the "feet" of the chrome frames, the LH (rear) one is obviously made from perforated strip - has anyone got one handy to confirm the sizes and the approximate section ?





Q6 : Is it possible (or even necessary) to get the winder shaft and pinion overhauled ?



Mine has a lot of slop in the teeth, and above all there is a lot of slop between the little pinion and its square shaft that carries the winder-handle - as if there's some pin-drive that's about to let go ?Q9


Q7 : What would the two series (3, then 4) of pop-rivet holes across the whole width of the door have been for, the ones that can be seen here about one quarter of the way up the door ? Perhaps the door-handle / arm-rest that my car has never had ? I could understand that for the rearmost holes but not for the ones to the front ?



Q8 : There was only a pair (2) of these clever little combs and fancy spring-steel plates to receive the self-tappers - presumably there should be three shimming arrangements like these, with 3 big screws and 3 smaller ones, used in pairs, along the whole length of the door top to retain the door-glass running gear ?



And what am I aiming for as regards the height I'm shimming - is it to do with the proximity of the chrome window-glass rail to the hood mechanism ?

Q9 : - see above picture, there's a fatigue crack in the top bend which is making the whole inner door skin flap - anyone else had that ? I'm intending to make a 15mm x 30mm channel out of 10/10 sheet with a soft-ish bend (that's "mou" for you Michel) and plug-weld it behind the whole length of that top angle. Overkill ?

Many thanks in advance for any contributions, they may help my vertigo - brought on by wondering how I got in this deep when all I wanted to do was substitute Red for Beige !

[Mich7920]

Hi Rory,

QS1 / 2 / 3 not enought time to answer. There is a lot of no conform mounting.
Q4 : yes Jaguar part ( Hight technology...) and from my memory 1 screw.
Q5 : I have the orginal. I will give you the good size tomorrow if nobody answer you before me.
Q6 : Don't understand what you mean
Q7 : There is 2 small sheet of metal to prevent the water. In an other picture you have the trace of a
seal/glue. I'll send you some photos if nobody don't do it before me.

Funny your jig !
Sure it was " plus fort que toi ! "

Mich

[Heuer]

Rory

This post from Factory Fit may help understand what should be there:
viewtopic.php?p=45774#p45774

Also this post maybe: viewtopic.php?p=28816#p28816

[rfs1957]

David's first link goes to Factory Fit and shows the 3 and 4 hole sequences were actually holding blanking-off panels for the two lower apertures, and indeed they were still accompanied by the original line of black mastic until I cleaned everything up this morning.

The second link doesn't square with my own chrome door trims in that Chris talks about his upper chrome strips as being of a "U" section and receiving the upper edges of the main door-cards.

My upper strips are shown as BD.20190 (plate 40 part 26) in J30 held on with 10 (5 per side ?) clips BD.17497 - and NOT the press-stud heads I've just discovered upon dismantling -

http://www.jagspares.co.uk/Manners/part ... no=BD17497

and self-tappers.

Can anyone confirm that on a 1962 car this upper chrome trim is indeed of exactly the same profile as the lower one BD.20503 (plate 40 part 28) since mine do look original ? And their section obviates any possibility of them lodging the upper edge of the lower door-cards ..... maybe this changed on later cars ?

The lower ones however are fitted with different clips, BD.11546, which look like this :

http://www.jagspares.co.uk/Manners/part ... no=BD11546

Keep them coming and thanks to all. R

[Mich7920]

Hi Rory,

Q1 :





Q2 : My 1963 OTS had this for the upper chrome. ( A side is missing)



Q3 : Used agraf for the inside wiper felt strip as for the the outside rubber seal



What I mean by " Agraf"



Q4 : I confirm...



Q9 : Weird to have a fatigue crack at a place where there's no flexion.
Check your windows chrome frame.
Why don't you simply make a 1mm trace with a cut off wheels just on the crack and Mig welding ?

Hope it's help you
Mich

[Heuer]

Whilst you are at it you may wish to include the Jaguar modification to the door to help avoid leaks.


Rest of the Service document on getting rid of leaks is in the Forum KB, Technical Information & Documentation, scroll to bottom of page. Makes interesting reading actually!

[Mich7920]

Hi Rory,

This is what you need to rebuilt the parts



The agraf for the wiper felt streep



Have a good week-end
Mich

[andrewh]

Whilst we are on the subject, can anyone shed any light on the outer glass seal fitment? there appears to be a slot cut in the top of the door panel which the rubber slips into . However , I often see on restored cars that the rubber appears to extend further to the front and rear of the door than the slots in the panel. Interested as to how this is achieved

[PeterCrespin]

.... However , I often see on restored cars that the rubber appears to extend further to the front and rear of the door than the slots in the panel. Interested as to how this is achieved

Trim the rubber section to allow protrusion. It's mostly a question of whether you prefer the water to leak into the door casing and out over the sill seal (you hope), or via the panel gap. A truly watertight seal is not an option on offer, except by necromancy and the Dark Arts...

[andrewh]

Ah yes, water leaks. What you all forget is, that its a good idea not to you use your E type in the rain. Anyway, I did trim the rubber on my FHC to do as you suggest , however without the metal underneath it where the rubber is bonded, it lifted up. I think perhaps the slots have to be increased in length. In fact, as I think about it there were no slots in my FHC as it had new skins on. So to answer my own question I think it should have slots cut in the top. Can anyone confirm that on a FHC these slots are on a FHC skin? I realise this is a muddle and I am hijacking another threads, so apologies. I will try to get a photo of what I mean!!

[rfs1957]

Remerciements to all, good drawings Michel, just what I needed.

First things first :



The Jig does work with the RH one, it gives a brilliant secure platform for working on the doors.



Here's the detail of the return under the vice-jaw to give it the extra security. I used 80 x 6 strip for the main upright, and then - as it flexed a bit - added a bit of 40 x 4.



These Shims BD.20873/1 ? and /2, and Triple-Spire-Nuts BD.17621 ? seen here do not seem to be listed anywhere by anyone - I can see that these could easily be replaced by invisible ad-hoc parts but am intruiged that they don't seem to be on any official radar.



Anyone found these elsewhere, and could also comment on "how high" is right ? I haven't got the hood on but am guessing that it's the position of the front chrome glass 'spike' that is being tweaked here on an OTS ? And the top door-glass traverse on an FHC ?

The original rubbers, front of window chrome, closing onto the windscreen upright, seen above, were - I think - BD.19397/2 shown plate 40-20 in J30.



A friendly and reputable supplier has sent BD.21964/3 as a substitute - seen below - which is listed as a V12-type, it looks plausible but I'm not sure whether this was a deliberate substitution or a fortuitous one - anyone used this and can suggest which is best ?

[PeterCrespin]

I just HAD to make a Door-Jig, it was "plus fort que moi" as you polyglots will understand.

Your jig is not without precedent Rory, and reminds me of one at Browns Lane for the 2+2 doors, signed off by the great Sir W himself.

My best friend did a stint at Browns Lane after he got his degree with RR. He told me about his office in the Body In White dept. which was just a partitioned-off section of the giant sheds, with their trusses and skylights and steel columns etc. There was one rolled-steel upright just outside his office that had a couple of holes in a flange, about six inches apart and a foot or two above floor level.

Apparently, fifteen or so years earlier, when developing the longer/heavier 2+2 doors, there had been some concern about hinge durability. They tried a few modifications and one evening Sir William was called down there to see a prototype door and hinge firmly bolted to the immovable steel column. After a few words with the engineers he apparently called for a crate, stepped up onto the upper edge of the door and bounced up and down on it whilst holding onto the column. Suitably reassured by the lack of flex (in the door, not the RSJ) he passed it fit for production and that was that. What price Finite Element Analysis, huh?

[ralphr1780]

These Shims BD.20873/1 ? and /2, and Triple-Spire-Nuts BD.17621 ? seen here do not seem to be listed anywhere by anyone - I can see that these could easily be replaced by invisible ad-hoc parts but am intruiged that they don't seem to be on any official radar.

Anyone found these elsewhere, and could also comment on "how high" is right ? I haven't got the hood on but am guessing that it's the position of the front chrome glass 'spike' that is being tweaked here on an OTS ? And the top door-glass traverse on an FHC ?

The original rubbers, front of window chrome, closing onto the windscreen upright, seen above, were - I think - BD.19397/2 shown plate 40-20 in J30.

A friendly and reputable supplier has sent BD.21964/3 as a substitute - seen below - which is listed as a V12-type, it looks plausible but I'm not sure whether this was a deliberate substitution or a fortuitous one - anyone used this and can suggest which is best ?

Rory, thanks to you I now know where these shims are supposed to go, because I had 3 laying in a box with various bits:

20170226_161530.jpg (102.26 KiB) Viewed 15630 times

And it is clear that I will be fitting the hood and seals, and adjusting the door glass sealing BEFORE fitting the door cards.

As for the illustrated rubber I really doubt BD21964/3 could work because the base is fatter than the original and the lip is shorter. Better to get the correct one for your car.

[rfs1957]

The second door did indeed have the famous metal plates that used the 3-hole and 4-hole series, they're very odd and something of an afterthought aren't they ? Kinked to fit.



They must have been trying to make sure as much water as possible stayed inside the door to rust that bottom seam.



As regards fatigue cracks in the top edge, both doors suffer from similar cracks and I intend to line the whole length with a suitable profile as - from experience with the Mini - I have found that small reinforcements like these make great changes to the "slam" quality and the stiffness of a door.




And if they've both cracked then there's a fundamental issue with them.

Has anyone got a spare one of these spire-nut plates they'd chuck in the post ? I've got 5 and it would be nice to have the 6th !



The famous lower-edge bracket that Michel kindly sketched the sizes of, and that I was about to knock up from strip, is available, zinc-chromated, from SNGB for just £3.96 plus VAT ;

http://www.sngbarratt.com/PartSearchRes ... no=BD20668

expensive for what it is, but are we not lucky to have cars where someone can be bothered to make parts like these available ?

[ralphr1780]

"The second door did indeed have the famous metal plates that used the 3-hole and 4-hole series, they're very odd and something of an afterthought aren't they ? Kinked to fit.
They must have been trying to make sure as much water as possible stayed inside the door to rust that bottom seam"

Rory, these metal plates are as a matter of fact very smart because they tend to channel eventual water ingress or condensation towards the centre of the door bottom. In their absence you would have some water dripping along the door card (then on the sill), despite the plastic foil. They are not afterthought, were present on S1 3.8 at least till '63 and dropped sometime afterwards in favour of a different arrangement combining plastic foils.

Btw, there should be no vinyl in the top corner of the door (where the courtesy lamp striker is fitted), should be visible body colour metal. As seen in the factory fit for illustration:

IMG_9703.jpg (157.69 KiB) Viewed 15558 times

Obviously for your doors the PO here was very generous with the paint as he did not bother in protecting the window winder mechanism prior to spraying...

[rfs1957]

Thanks Ralph, my comments about the plates were meant a bit tongue-in-cheek, I can see what they were trying to do.

The PO was generous with indeed everything, except for any attempts at taking any care over anything.

However as regards the plastic pipe that collects from the front drain, I'm puzzled why this isn't fed through an orifice on the bottom of the door so the water collected gets out without transiting by the door volume ?

The sliding-window Minis have a similar arrangement, and the plastic pipe drains direct to the outside - see the drain from the channel at the top, and the guide for the pipe through the door bottom :



This shows the guide pipe and the swaging tool used to fit it to the door.



Any reason why a mod like that isn't a good idea ? Maybe so much water is getting in everywhere else ........

My conversations with BAS suggest that some cars - like Michel's ? - did have a trimmed upper corner, but then the vinyl and the plate (which BAS supply in alloy) would stop the water-collecting orifices from functioning ............ ?

[ralphr1780]

"However as regards the plastic pipe that collects from the front drain, I'm puzzled why this isn't fed through an orifice on the bottom of the door so the water collected gets out without transiting by the door volume ? "

Rory, if you still have the original plastic pipes, send your fingers along and you will note that there is a guiding metal clip which leads the pipe almost facing the bottom front drain slot. I have used transparent pvc pipe (available in any hardware store) to replace the old ones, and cut these a little longer and at angle so that they slightly bend stuck in the door bottom facing the drain slot.
But I haven't made up yet my mind whether to refit the plates or not, still thinking about adopting a simpler but equally efficient set up.

[rfs1957]

Interesting, these top door-corner trims - can others comment on what they've got / seen ? I couldn't see anything on the Sticky-Original detailing post ?



If they're as complete as Ralph's car suggests, and as mine had been trimmed, the gully with its two drains would be essentially inoperable. BAS say some cars did have these, I'll ask for a picture of what they sell as I suspect my alloy parts shown here are home-made.



As regards the doors themselves, mine appeared fine, albeit sounding a bit "flabby" when shut, and FWIIW here are the shots of the various failed welds and cracks that I found - in both, so I believe it's an inherent failing.



This might help others spot weaknesses in their doors that might otherwise have escaped them.



I'm reinforcing the upper edge of the inner skin with 15/10 angles (15mm / 25mm / at 80° and a soft radius) and am tying them in with plug-welds both to the skin AND the end vertical panels.



The threaded inserts are actually a bit too "precise" and the Jag solution with the self-tappers and the spire-plates would be much more tolerant and easier to assemble, but in this way the cut-outs for finger-access are no longer necessary and the reinforcement will be stiffer.





From what I can see, as long as the chrome-frames are in place, and in mid-adjustment position, to put the correct "set" on the assembly when the welding is done, there nevertheless remains enough "spring" in the parts to permit door-glass alignment tweaks once all is in place.

[rfs1957]

Here are two shots from Jack at BAS, 3.8 and 4.2 ............

[rfs1957]

In restoring (most of) the pictures in this thread, so it ties in with this one

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11675&p=94558#p94558

I realised I had some more shots of the repairng and reinforcing of the inner door skins, plus some finished shots, so FWIIW :





















Please be inspired by the door-holding jigs, adapted to the ubiquitous Clarke engine-stand !

Fantastic for painting, assembly, Waxoyling etc