Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Technical advice Q&A
User avatar

Topic author
politeperson
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:26 pm
Location: Boston UK
Great Britain

#1 Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by politeperson » Fri May 05, 2017 6:47 pm

On Wednesday I noticed oil being ejected around the front of the engine on the frames.

Further inspection revealed that it appeared to becoming from the front pulley crank oil seal.

The bits arrived today so 2 hours after I get home from work I get to the seal.

Pulley off, cone off, sump down. Need to raise the motor a bit to get it off, I will do that tomorrow.


Image

These are the seal bits I have been supplied with. I also have the sump gasket and rear sump gashet seal and some lovely black Wynns black gasket compound.


Image

Not quite sure how to get the old distance piece out to allow the black seal to be removed.

Not sure which way the distance piece goes. It has a distinct champher on one end. I assume the yellow collar is to protect the seal sliding over the distance piece. ?

Not sure about the rubber O ring either.

Any assistance from those that know greatly appreciated.

James
James
Responsibly Irresponsible.

L.J.K. Setright was very right.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 2934
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

#2 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by mgcjag » Fri May 05, 2017 6:59 pm

Hi James...you dont hang about.......is this on the newly rebuilt engine.......how much oil was you loosing.....have a look here http://www.georgiajag.com/Documents/Cra ... kSeal.html at the rate you work at im hoping to see another drive video on Sunday :bigrin: all the best..Steve PS..similar topics below
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
politeperson
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:26 pm
Location: Boston UK
Great Britain

#3 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by politeperson » Fri May 05, 2017 9:08 pm

Steve,

Thanks.

Yes, its the new motor. There was some messing around with timing covers and water pumps, I suspect that is the culprit. never mind, old cars are old cars!

Looks like I have the new Teflon seal kit to fit then.

So, I bin the oil slinger and replace it with the o ring,

I assume the champher on the distance piece is fitted towards the o ring then.

Thankyou very much.
Last edited by politeperson on Fri May 12, 2017 8:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
James
Responsibly Irresponsible.

L.J.K. Setright was very right.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

abowie
Posts: 1738
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:15 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:
Australia

#4 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by abowie » Fri May 05, 2017 9:10 pm

Make sure you put the seal on the right way around. They can be mounted backward on the yellow plastic installation piece out of the package.
You will need to remove the oil slinger.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
politeperson
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:26 pm
Location: Boston UK
Great Britain

#5 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by politeperson » Fri May 05, 2017 9:14 pm

Thanks Andrew,

I assume you mean the new grey seal is fitted in the same direction as the old black one that I remove in the photo.

James
James
Responsibly Irresponsible.

L.J.K. Setright was very right.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 2934
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

#6 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by mgcjag » Fri May 05, 2017 9:27 pm

Worth reading this one as well viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5518
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


64etype
Posts: 353
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:07 pm
Location: Texas, USA
United States of America

#7 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by 64etype » Sat May 06, 2017 1:32 am

As I discussed in this thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9746 it is highly probable that the outer rubber ring of your Teflon seal is too large for the grooves in the timing cover and oil pan. It will not seek center after assembly as mentioned in the Georgia paper...and it will leak. Resizing is discussed in the thread.
Eric

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
politeperson
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:26 pm
Location: Boston UK
Great Britain

#8 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by politeperson » Sat May 06, 2017 8:08 am

OK, Thanks chaps once again.

From what I understand so far, this simple problem of sealing an engine is relatively complicated.

I thought this problem of clearances and seals had been put to bed 100 years ago.

1) The new seal, supplied by a respected large Jag parts Specialist might or might not fit. If it doesn't fit, it will take 1 day of messing around to get it to centre. (Really?).

2)The yellow fitting piece on the seal can be discarded when fitting, as per in Dicks instructions.

3)The new seal goes into position, the sump then goes back on helping the new seal centre. Then the new distance piece pops in, I assume with the chamferd end pointing in, to stretch the seal tip without damaging it.

4) Its much easier on a later Series 2 timing cover than an earlier timing cover as the later groove allows the seal to be removed with the crank in situ, the earlier requires the timing case to be removed as well.

So, I think I just have to get on with it and see if it leaks!
James
Responsibly Irresponsible.

L.J.K. Setright was very right.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


64etype
Posts: 353
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:07 pm
Location: Texas, USA
United States of America

#9 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by 64etype » Sat May 06, 2017 4:20 pm

politeperson wrote:
1) The new seal, supplied by a respected large Jag parts Specialist might or might not fit. If it doesn't fit, it will take 1 day of messing around to get it to centre. (Really?).
Yes, Really. Here are some photos of what Glen Jarbo documented on Jag- Lovers years ago.

http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_vi ... 787559&n4=

My engine was on an engine stand. After reading Glen's related article and speaking with him (he lives ten minutes from me) I positioned the unmodified seal and then installed and torqued the pan with the pan gasket installed. Same gap as Glen had documented...and it was clearly not going to self center from the pressure. Another local friend tried this installation with two of these unmodified seals and both distorted and leaked. He gave up and installed a standard Jaguar lip seal...no leaks. If you'd like to speak with Glen and Mike I can put you in contact.

There are many old posts on J-L about leaks resulting from ill-fitting Teflon seals. It's clear the problem has been the fit in the groove, which results in poor fit of the sealing surface on the crank. Might be a function of the groove size.

Perhaps the respected Specialist who supplied my part changed the specs on the seal they were supplying three years ago, but it looks like the same kit. I'm sure you are much faster than I with these things...I admit to being slow and deliberate...but I do have a front seal that does not leak.
Eric

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
politeperson
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:26 pm
Location: Boston UK
Great Britain

#10 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by politeperson » Sat May 06, 2017 6:46 pm

Flamin eck, well thanks Eric.

This is the new seal (2.750) positioned in the groove.


Image

Seems to centre OK.

To remove the sump I had to raise the engine and box a bit. 10mm or thereabouts I would estimate.



Image

It came out ok, leaving me a nice view of my crankshaft. At least the flywheel looks dry. Fixing a leak there would be a right faff.






Image
Last edited by politeperson on Sat May 06, 2017 7:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
James
Responsibly Irresponsible.

L.J.K. Setright was very right.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
politeperson
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:26 pm
Location: Boston UK
Great Britain

#11 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by politeperson » Sat May 06, 2017 7:01 pm

Well I did it. I think.

It was a victory snatched from the jaws of defeat in the end though.

If I was doing the same job on an S1 or S1.5 I might not have finished it by now. The timing cover would probably of had to come off extending the drama by a few more hours.

The cause of the leak was obvious once the distance piece was removed. It was old rusted and pitted.



Unfortunately the new replacement came with no keyway!

So it wouldn't fit! . Both below.

I was just about to give up at that point. Then-





Image

Then I remembered I had the original engine lying around. Luckily the old distance piece was very good nice smooth chrome finish.

So I cleaned all the old gaskets off, glued the rear seal in place on the sump holding it with spring clips, glued the sump gaskets, turned the engine so the woodruff keys were pointing downwards and the slid the new seal (without the yellow stretcher) into position.

Then I jacked up the engine and box again, carefully refitted the sump, looked at the new seal (looked central to me), tapped in the new (old) distance piece, reassembled everything, struck her up.

10 minutes no oil leak, not a drop. Need to do a proper run but so far so good.

Tomorrows job is to stop the front wheels falling off. That can be tomorrows post. (new wheel bearings, wheels, spinners etc but half an inch if lateral play developed last week for no reason)

Image

Old Seal and pitted distance piece.
James
Responsibly Irresponsible.

L.J.K. Setright was very right.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


64etype
Posts: 353
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:07 pm
Location: Texas, USA
United States of America

#12 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by 64etype » Sat May 06, 2017 9:20 pm

Congratulations!

So, did you install the oil slinger with the original length distance piece?
Eric

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
politeperson
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:26 pm
Location: Boston UK
Great Britain

#13 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by politeperson » Sat May 06, 2017 9:29 pm

Eric,

I left the oil slinger in place and fitted on old original length distance piece, that was in good condition.
James
Responsibly Irresponsible.

L.J.K. Setright was very right.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


64etype
Posts: 353
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:07 pm
Location: Texas, USA
United States of America

#14 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by 64etype » Sat May 06, 2017 9:38 pm

Well, that's good as far as the stack up length is concerned. But the longevity of the seal is now at risk because it relies on plentiful oil splash to keep the Teflon cool....the reason for deleting the slinger. And if I remember correctly, neither did my new spacer have a keyway...it's held in place by friction from the compressed stack. I believe I'd install a conventional lip seal at this point...
Eric

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
politeperson
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:26 pm
Location: Boston UK
Great Britain

#15 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by politeperson » Sun May 07, 2017 7:14 am

Thanks Eric,

Guess Ill find out now.

Removing then refitting the keyways in-situ looked a bit tricky yesterday,

How do you tell the difference between a lip seal and a Teflon seal?

To be honest, I just ordered a seal and didn't think what it might be made of.

The one that came out was black, the replacement was grey!

James
James
Responsibly Irresponsible.

L.J.K. Setright was very right.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 2934
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

#16 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by mgcjag » Sun May 07, 2017 7:54 am

Hi James...good write up...i knew you would have it done ready for a Sunday drive......what is the yellow insert used for...was it needed... Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

PeterCrespin
Posts: 3628
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:22 pm
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland.
Contact:
United States of America

#17 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by PeterCrespin » Sun May 07, 2017 11:38 am

Black seal comes with gasket set. Teflon is extra and used to only come with collar and o-ring as a 3-piece kit.

'Centred' refers to radially on the distance piecd, not axially in the groove. One photo seemed to suggest the latter? It will be interesting to see if it lasts with the slinger fitted.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 79 S2 XJ12L; 97 XJ6L

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


64etype
Posts: 353
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:07 pm
Location: Texas, USA
United States of America

#18 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by 64etype » Sun May 07, 2017 3:45 pm

What matters is where the lip portion of the seal sits relative to the crank when installed with the oil pan cover torqued. That can't be eyeballed with the engine installed. For piece of mind, I'd get a few straight on photos if possible.
Eric

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
politeperson
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:26 pm
Location: Boston UK
Great Britain

#19 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by politeperson » Sun May 07, 2017 3:59 pm

Yes boys understood.

It looked spot on when viewed from the end of the crank.

I have done 90 miles today, not a drop yet!

I haven't a clue what the yellow tube is about. Maybe it assists fitting in some applications. It wasn't much use to me with the Jag, so I just pulled it off.

The loose front wheels turned out to be one loose wheel bearing and one loose spinner!. Now fixed.
James
Responsibly Irresponsible.

L.J.K. Setright was very right.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 2934
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

#20 Re: Front Crank Seal Fitting Tips Please

Post by mgcjag » Sun May 07, 2017 4:44 pm

Hi James....glad your up and running.....it been a really good short sharp and to the point post.....been lots of talk about the front seal and droping the sump, and what seals to use etc, think it will give inspiration to others to have a go......all the best ... Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic