Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

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#1 Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by rfs1957 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:44 am

After a hundred or so hours spent taking the cabin back almost to metal, even after applying a lot of soundproofing panels (Dynamat Extreme, also available from BAS when you buy your trim) I found it excruciatingly painful to now just smear and/or spray contact adhesive everywhere when re-fitting carpets and the like.

The under-dash areas and side-board Harduras (around the door-hinge) areas seemed to be crying out for something different.

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I had used this sign-makers' panelling in other applications and loved its lightness, stiffness, and sound-dumbing ; it nevertheless remains easy and forgiving to work with.

Alloy skin on either side, plastic in the middle, 4mm thick ; lots of off-cuts for £10 ........

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Add thin rubber-coated (better shear) neodymium magnets (held in the panel thickness with Araldite) from https://www.supermagnete.de/eng/ and you end up with a system that means flat panels can be removed in seconds without any recourse to glue on the body.

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I particularly like the way the Hardura now lies flat and true in this application, instead of the visually-floppy way it used to struggle to lie flat on surfaces that are in fact anything but.

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With the growing popularity of speakers mounted in these floorwell cheeks, it would be easy to incorporate them into this stuff at the same time.

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Cutting best done with rail-guided circular saw for initial chopping up, followed by a jig-saw fitted with a fine TPI blate, then de-burring done with a fine file ; holes best cut with a conical step-drill - just bang your fist on the panel when it's almost-right, and any protruding bolts/nuts will leave a dent that you just drill out.

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The combination of this forgiving sandwich-board and the highly adaptable Hardura makes for very neat and rather satisfying trims.

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Spare me the non-original bleating, it's reversible, discreet, and for cars that are used and get worked on it's progress.

And PS - Floor-Carpets don't HAVE to be glued into place, I made up EPDM copies (they don't slide) of the BAS floor-mats and successfully assembled the three thicknesses (carpet/soundproofing felt/EPDM) into a pair of clogs that are held in with 3 carpet studs (FS018 and FS019) also from BAS.

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PPS - and just so you get THREE bits of info for the price of ONE, your spare spacers from seat-belts bought from Pawel at QuickfitSBS are perfect for taking up carpet-thickness when bolting the seats (in my case) or the seat-runners (in yours) into place.

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Last edited by rfs1957 on Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Rory
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#2 Re: Under-Dash panels + Cabin Harduras - a different way ?

Post by mgcjag » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:12 pm

Looking great Rory....nice job
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#3 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by 288gto » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:20 pm

Very nice Rory, a neat alternative solution. I was contemplating using the 2 or 3mm pvc sheet that a friends company also use to print display signs on. I hadn't considered the alloy sandwich stuff, thanks. Door cards might work well with this approach ( not the magnets though).

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#4 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Hugo » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:19 pm

Neat solution - better than the original so why would anybody whinge about it? That aluminium/plastic sandwich material is lovely stuff to work with - I use it occasionally to make dash panels etc for my coaches.
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#5 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Quattrofrank » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:27 pm

I like it alot :)
Didnt quite undertsand what you used for the carpet, some sort of rubber/sound deadning, then some felt and then the carpet?

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#6 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by rfs1957 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:42 am

I've just added some other advantages into the original post, including the fact that the footwell cheek-board Harduras now lie flat, instead of looking like rather flabby curtains - which is inevitable with the convoluted shape of the steel-work in that area.

Furthermore it would be easy to incorporate speakers into the sandwich-board at the same time.

I think the magnets I used are 16mm in diameter, and 4 or 5mm thick - so by gluing them into the depth of the board you actually get the opportunity to fine-tune their location on the shell - I applied the Araldite, put a layer of plastic tape on either side to keep the glue confined, and just popped the panel (untrimmed) into place.

In that way the magnets adopt exactly the right position, and once the Araldite is cured you can pop off the panel, whip off the tape, and get trimming.

Supermagnete also have threaded magnets, I bought a selection of various sorts - but the plain rubberised ones are perhaps all you need. The clamping force is lower due to the rubber, but the grip in shear is impressive.

I sent paper patterns of the under-dash panels to BAS and they made me a matching set from the same stuff as the rest of the cabin trim, fantastic service as usual.

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This picture is cleverer than it looks - by using a strip of vinyl trim under some tension, vertically as seen on the (sideways) picture in fact, behind the edge that you can see when sitting in the car, you can "turn" that edge towards the car metalwork and make it hug the door-sill profile much more neatly.

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If you got really good at this the same method would enable you to tweak the visible edges of the under-dash panels, which aren't exactly flattered by the photo-flash I used to take them.

Frank - Carpets ?

Yes, the EPDM is a sort of rubbery 3mm sheet (I bought whichever polymer it was that resists petrol and oils best ?) that is easy to cut with a knife ; as long as you remember to de-grease any glued areas (I'm nervous about release-agent greases etc so try to remember to wipe with acetone before gluing) it seems to work well with standard contact adhesives.

So you end up with a triple sandwich of EPDM, then the under-felt, then the visible carpets.

I can't be doing with areas that can collect water that can't be stripped out easily, and IMHO the Dynamat should be applied carefully and thoughtfully with NO attempt being made to over-lap seals and seams, on the contrary.

Every area on my car that showed any signs of rust (after being bare-shell restored 27 years ago) systematically involved seams and joins that had been rendered "watertight" - except that they never are, they get damp, don't breathe properly, and the rust starts again.

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So my Dynamat panels all stop short of overlapping when they meet their neighbours. I challenge anyone to prove this reduces their capacity to reduce noise - we use them to soften the harmonics of panels, and reduce their transmission of noise, not to try to "tank" our cars.

Which is why I won't use it on any floor ........... hence the removable EPDM.
Last edited by rfs1957 on Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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#7 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Hugo » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:53 am

Ain't that neat!
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#8 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Bobb » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:30 pm

Great idea Rory. My interior is getting a spruce up and I'll be incorporating a few of your ideas.
An alternative to the magnets or gluing is something I've used for decades...good old Velcro.
I use Gorilla glue to attached the hook and pile to the carpet/insulation and the floor. It stays
in place and is quickly removable for the winter inspection and cleaning.

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#9 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Gfhug » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:11 pm

One observation on an otherwise superb idea, some of the rubber matting can smell quite strongly, certainly the one I bought. Can't tell how long the smell will stay or if heat in the car will make it worse.
Rory, did you come across this at all?

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#10 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by rfs1957 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:23 am

Hi Geoff, Sorry - didn't see that question of yours.

Can't say I have noticed any smells at all, to be honest. I was pretty parsimonious with the contact adhesive.

The extra EPDM rubber sheet I used hard against the floor-pans was, yes, probably the ingredient that smelled the most - but I've never noticed it in use.

Having an OTS and not using the hood much may be the main reason !

I think the reflective material I used to line the transmission tunnel is probably the reason why cabin-heat has never been an issue on the car.

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I referred to it here but the pictures have been PhotoF---ed of course :

http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php? ... it=gearbox

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It has a dimpled alloy skin carried on perhaps a rock-wool core, and stopping the heat ever getting into the cabin is the key - the stuff we are all putting inside our cabins is principally of some interest for its sound-deadening properties, and the fact that it's silver is quite irrelevant to its heat-insulating contribution.
Last edited by rfs1957 on Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#11 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Hugo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:49 pm

rfs1957 wrote: - the stuff we are all putting inside our cabins is principally of some interest for its sound-deadening properties, and the fact that it's silver is quite irrelevant to its heat-insulating contribution.
I don't think that's correct - silver will reflect heat as well as light. That's why Thermos flasks are silver inside. That's what I recall from my schoolboy physics, anyway.
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#12 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by rfs1957 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:33 pm

I thought the heat was trying to get from the engine / transmission bay through the steel of the body and into the cockpit.

On my car it's like that anyway.

The outer finishes on the bituminous sheets are thus irrelevant when they're fitted cabin-side, as they are themselves covered with felt and carpets.

They are therefore merely transmitters and can have no reflective function.

But hey, maybe that's just another theory.
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#13 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Heuer » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:08 pm

Rory is totally correct. Heat can be either radiated or conducted - the former requires a reflective surface material, the latter requires an insulating material. Putting silver lined material in the cockpit will only serve to reflect heat back into the cockpit which is the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.

Dynamat and other reflective surfaces need to be placed between the engine/gearbox/IRS and the bodywork to reflect heat away. Kool-Mat needs to line the interior of the cabin to insulate against heat penetrating from below by conduction.

Clearly you were not paying much attention during your Physics lessons Hugo :shrug:
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#14 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Gfhug » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:19 pm

I'm with Rory and David there. Looks like I paid a bit of attention in fiziks, even if it was a decade or several ago :wink:

(Rory, did you notice my question in your 'pinking, mixture..' topic. If you have observations? Thanks)

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#15 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Hugo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:51 pm

I don't agree. Wherever you put a reflective (silver) layer, it will bounce the heat back in the direction it comes from. So yes, it will prevent the heat escaping FROM the interior, but it will also prevent heat from the engine getting INTO the interior. Even if you just paint the bare metal floor silver, it will act as a heat barrier in BOTH directions. Makes no difference whether it is on top of any insulating material or underneath it. Silver paint is reflective on BOTH sides, even though you can only see one side of it!
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#16 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Series1 Stu » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:31 pm

No Hugo

The effectiveness of the silver surface is pretty much negated as soon as it is placed in contact with another surface as there is no longer any scope for thermal radiation. The silver part, being metal, will promote thermal conduction and could work against the objective of reducing heat, albeit in a very minor way.

David and Rory are absolutely correct to say that the insulation's reflective surface should be on the external surface of bulkheads, tunnels etc. Shiny stuff under the carpets is entirely pointless and is why I won't spend a fortune on shiny Dynamat when plain bituminous insulation is more than adequate. Jaguar originally used Flintkote for anti drum properties and horse hair for insulationand sound deadening.

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#17 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by rfs1957 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:45 pm

Dear Hugo,

If achieving your record rapid ascension in the postings had not been at the price of hundreds of hours spent on the Forum, a casual observer might have thought that your intention was to probe at what point your audience of anoraks would grasp that you were winding them up.

Fortunately for you, and unfortunately for the rest of us, there generally reigns amongst E-Type owners a certain probity, a reticence at raising the tone, rising to the bait, or rocking the boat, and slight irony or understatement is about the limit of what we stretch to when getting an even strongly-felt view across.

I say fortunately for you, in that you have managed - unchecked - to write some of the dumbest nonsense it has ever been given for me to read on the Internet, and certainly the most half-cocked cod-science written anywhere on this Forum.

When other members have used the irony / understatement approach, it has just gone right over your head.

The result is that you have filled and clouded hundreds of posts with irrelevant and incorrect twaddle, through which the rest of us have to wade.

It is highly telling that you have visibly never actually spent any time researching or calculating what you spout, still less actually taking your own photographs, making your own sketches, downloading them, in short making any EFFORT.

It's far easier - and, somewhat worryingly, apparently more rewarding for you - to just inject keyboard-diarrhea.

As I look through the dross that you have posted, I am hard-pressed to find a single contribution where it could be said that you have actually added anything of any sense or consequence that furthers our understanding of these cars.

This sentiment is shared by a great many of us here, who have compared notes by PM, and were hoping that you might "get the message" and belt up.

Since you haven't picked up the signs, I have elected it to give it to you from the hip.

Please just READ the Forum, and keep your comments to your self.

Stop your irrelevant, boring, distracting, incorrect and frankly tedious additions to the exchanges that we have here, as they were frankly a lot more enjoyable and useful before you joined our ranks.

If you want to write about Buses and Diesels, do it somewhere else please.


PS Your latest twaddle is just that ; reflection requires visibility. Geddit ? The aluminium inner surface is not silver at all, it is blindingly obviously BLACK as it is in the dark hard against the bitumen that it's joined to, and if anything - being an excellent conductor - some other Hugo might even write a post to tell us that it makes things worse, and we ought to use a poorer conductor like stainless steel.


PPS If you want to write puffery about motorcycles, especially S+S in Wisconsin, choose your audience,




and if you want to spout cod-science, avoid discussions with Chartered Mechanical Enginners that are considered, by the owners of some of the most rarified kit ever, to have hands that can be trusted to actually do the work too.

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Theory and practice under one roof ?

I would hasard that you have neither.
Last edited by rfs1957 on Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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#18 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Hugo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:52 pm

Series1 Stu wrote:No Hugo
The effectiveness of the silver surface is pretty much negated as soon as it is placed in contact with another surface as there is no longer any scope for thermal radiation. The silver part, being metal, will promote thermal conduction and could work against the objective of reducing heat, albeit in a very minor way.
Regards
I still disagree. Imagine you are trying to reflect light instead of heat - both behave in a similar way. Now imagine that everything on the car is transparent except your reflective insulating material (i.e. aluminium sheet). It doesn't matter where you put the reflective material, on top or underneath, the effect will be the same. Just as it is with reflected heat. Yes / no?
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#19 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Hugo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:56 pm

rfs1957 wrote: PS Your latest twaddle is just that ; reflection requires visibility. Geddit ? The aluminium inner surface is not silver at all, it is blindingly obviously BLACK as it is in the dark hard against the bitumen that it's joined to,.........
I don't think so. Just cos you can't see it, and it's in the dark, doesn't mean it isn't still silver and capable of reflecting heat. I'm talking about radiated heat rather than conducted heat of course. In the same way, if you paint a domestic radiator silver it will radiate less heat than one painted black. Even if you paint the silver radiator black on top of the silver, the underlying silver will still act as a barrier to radiated heat.
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#20 Re: Under-Dash, Cabin Harduras, Carpets - a different way ?

Post by Geoff Green » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:32 am

Hugo,

You are mixing two different properties of heat transfer. Also you do not state references so your information comes across as guessing or miss-information. More details needed and less standing in left field, so to counter the "Hugo" effect:

Paint on metal surfaces from two supporting papers. Note smooth vs rough unpainted surfaces not researched by myself.

http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/nbstec ... erT254.pdf

EMISSIVE TESTS OF PAINTS FOR
DECREASING OR INCREASING HEAT
RADIATION FROM SURFACES
BY W. W. COBLENTZ, Physicist C. W. HUGHES, Assistant Physicist

The experiments with the Melloni cube show that the bright uncontaminated metal surface offers a much greater resistance to the transformation of the molecular vibration into the ethereal vibration than a nonmetallic coating applied to this same metal surface. The experiment with the Melloni cube has, therefore, two important applications, depending whether it is desired to (1) decrease or (2) increase the process of heat radiation; and it maybe enunciated, as a general principle, that clean, bright surfaces
of all metals or paints of metal flakes decrease the intensity of thermal radiation (are poor radiators; that is, have a low emissivity), while the nonmetals, or paints of nonmetals (oxides, oxidized metal surfaces, etc.) facilitate or increase the rate of heat radiation. The temperature being low, this heat radiation is of long-wave lengths, invisible to the eye, and hence the color of the paint, whether red, yellow, green, or white, is no indication of its emissive properties. Aluminum oxide, white-lead paint (which is principally
a carbonate of lead), and (green) chromium oxide have as high an emissivity as lampblack paint, and they have more pleasant and harmonious decrative properties.

Supporting research 32 years later.

http://scholarsmine.mst.edu/cgi/viewcon ... ers_theses

HEAT TRANSFER COEFFICIENT OF
PAINT FILMS
BY
RICHARD F. JUSTUS
A THESIS
submitted to the faculty of the
SCHOOL OF MINES AND METALLURGY OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI

On the basis of the determination, the results indicate heat losses are increased by painting. Black and white painted surfaces lose the most heat, and aluminum painted surface 46 will lose more heat than a bare surface but not as much as either black or white. Even applying linseed oil to the surface increases the heat lost.

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