1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Technical advice Q&A

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porkman
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#1 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by porkman » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:02 am

Newbie on here ...

The restorer (v experienced name in Jag circles so knows his stuff) did a few hundred shake-down miles before handing it over. It has sat with me for the best part of a year. I am now trying to get some more miles on it before it's first service.

The problem I'm having is that the car starts and runs well for a few miles/minutes. But if it stops you will be lucky to get it to re-start. This happened embarrassingly at the MOT station (had to wait about 20 mins before able to restart) and on the couple of miles home the throttle felt 'woolly' and the engine felt like it was going to conk out if I let the revs drop. It eventually did, within sight of home and so another 15 minutes of waiting for the thing to start again.

The restorer is a 3.5hr drive away so I cannot simply drop it back to be checked over.

From what I have read there are about 3 possibilities of varying likelihood;
1. The fuel has gone off or is 'winter grade'. I don't think that would happen in a year and the cars starts ok when cold.
2. The coil is failing when it reaches a certain temp and then is ok again at lower temp.
3. The carb settings need adjusting. (A dark art I don't want to play with)

Is there a magic EType fix I'm missing?
Should a reasonable Jag Specialist be able to get to the bottom of this i.e. not rocket science?

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malcolm
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#2 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by malcolm » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:23 am

Sounds like a carb issue to me. They aren't as hard to tune/balance as you might think. Have a look in the handbook (if you don't have one with the car, they are easy enough to get) OR, any decent e type friendly garage will be able to sort it. Where are you based? Let us know, and I'm sure people will be able to recommend someone not too far away.
Malcolm
I only fit in a 2+2, so got one!
1969 Series 2 2+2
2009 Jaguar XF-S

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mgcjag
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#3 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by mgcjag » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:29 am

Hi Whats your name......car sat for a year not used.....could be coil, points, rotor arm, condensor, or carb adjustment, fuel sat for a year could cause problems........as you say not complicated to solve just needs working through, anyone competent shoukd be able to solve it.....first easy thing is a new coil, you can do this yourself.....are you also able to pull the distributor cap and check yourself... Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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Mich7920
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#4 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by Mich7920 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:39 am

Hi "Porkman"

Before doing anything, I'll check the fuel link because it seems that it don't come to the SU as much as it must.

I don't think the SU are faulty, if there where only one witout not enough fuel the other one take the engine on. Badly but they take it on.

What I will do :
- Check the filter into the glass near the engine.
- Check your pump but I think it's new after a restoration.
- Dismount the link of the fuel after the glass filter ( juste before the dispatching ramp for the SU )
and put the power to check if the fuel arrive well. Beware with the fire !!!
The best to check this is when the car is beakdown of course.
If the engine run well when it's cold, you'll see nothing with the car cold.

Just a thing, when the engine began to stop did you try to put the choke on ?

Start to eliminating the fuel fault. One "solution" after one. :wink:

Hope it help you
Mich
Michel
1965 E Type FHC - On the road - 1963 E Type OTS - Angus Restoration
Gran Torino Sport 1975 - Renault 4cv 1956 - CItroen 15/6 1951 - CItroen Traction 1945
Citroen Coupé docteur 5Hp 1924 - Citroen B12 1926 - Torpedo Sygma 1913
Harley D. 1915 sidecar

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#5 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by andrewh » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:52 am

you can just sell me the car and I will sort it out if you like!! :bigrin:

I would think its electrical rather than fuel. If it is fuel I would think its old fuel rather than carburettors. Assuming that all that was done, and it ran ok before conking, it would not make sense for them to go out of tune when hot. 90% of Carburettor problems turn out to be ignition! I would be looking at whether the incorrect coil has been fitted namely a Ballasted coil where it should not be which would overheat. I would be looking inside the distributor for signs of tracking ( overheating the coil) and burnt points. I have exactly this same situation on another non Jaguar car and it turned out to be a points gap that was too small. Fine it seemed when cold not so when hot! Anyway, I am sure its easy to find just a matter of going through things and not altering things if they are not obviously at fault. I also just had a similar problem with an early Range Rover which turned out to be a faulty brand new fuel pump. Good luck.
1962 3.8 Series One FHC

http://etype860897.blogspot.com/

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porkman
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#6 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by porkman » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:09 am

Thanks for replies;
Re my location I'm just to the west of Heathrow.

My restorer recommends Winspeed in my neck of the woods but it's too far to drive in its current state so would have to be transported.
Within a few miles of me is Powerbell who I am tempted to use.

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#7 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by Heuer » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:48 am

Have you tried a mobile engineer? The E-Type is nothing special and easy to work on. Any competent mechanic should be able to sort the problem. Fuel standing for a year is not an issue and there is no 'winter grade' petrol, that is reserved for diesel which becomes waxy when cold. If the fuel pump was dickey the car would not start from cold - you should be able to hear the ticking when you switch the ignition on. The SU's are unlikely to be at fault as they do not go out of tune with standing and if they did it would be performance that would suffer. That leaves us with electrics as Andrew has suggested. Does the car have electronic ignition? Replace the coil (Lucas HA12) and if it has a contact breaker in the dizzy install a new condenser.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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chuffer
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#8 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by chuffer » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:07 am

And if it has a black rotor arm, replace it with a red one from The Distributor Doctor
Ray
S1 FHC 3.8, XK Convertible

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#9 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by 1954Etype » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:10 pm

Long shot but it could be a non vented fuel cap. Take it off and see if it has a hole in it. (Yours should)
Angus 67 FHC 1E33656

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Mich7920
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#10 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by Mich7920 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:31 pm

Oh Oh, two teams in competition !!
Team Fuel
Team electric

Let us know M.Porkman ( A name could be more easy...) who's going to WIN :mrgreen:

LONG LIVE GAZOLINE - SHUTS DOWN ELECTRICITY :bigrin:
Michel
1965 E Type FHC - On the road - 1963 E Type OTS - Angus Restoration
Gran Torino Sport 1975 - Renault 4cv 1956 - CItroen 15/6 1951 - CItroen Traction 1945
Citroen Coupé docteur 5Hp 1924 - Citroen B12 1926 - Torpedo Sygma 1913
Harley D. 1915 sidecar

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mylesw
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#11 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by mylesw » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:13 pm

I second that this is electrical. I had a similar issue on my TR4 and turned out to be the rotor arm. As suggested get a new one from the Distributor Doctor and whilst you're at it get a condensor also. If it turns out not to be these then you'll always have a spare. Only takes 2 mins to change the rotor arm.

Myles
1964 RHD 3.8 FHC

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#12 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by cactusman » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:46 pm

I'd start with a new red rotor arm...
Julian the E-type man
1962 FHC
1966 MGB....fab little car too

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porkman
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#13 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by porkman » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:22 pm

Thanks again for the ideas;

I'm more persuaded by the electrical suggestions- these items are more likely to go out of whack with heat (and then return to normal) than the fuelling systems I would think.

I may try replacing these, one at a time and see where this gets me. They are fairly cheap and I will at least learn some maintenance on this car!

If none of that works, professional help will be sought because it will then be way beyond my primitive skills. :hammer:

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#14 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by PeterCrespin » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:47 am

Mich7920 wrote:Hi "Porkman"

Before doing anything, I'll check the fuel link because it seems that it don't come to the SU as much as it must.

I don't think the SU are faulty, if there where only one witout not enough fuel the other one take the engine on. Badly but they take it on.

What I will do :
- Check the filter into the glass near the engine.
- Check your pump but I think it's new after a restoration.
- Dismount the link of the fuel after the glass filter ( juste before the dispatching ramp for the SU )
and put the power to check if the fuel arrive well. Beware with the fire !!!
The best to check this is when the car is beakdown of course.
If the engine run well when it's cold, you'll see nothing with the car cold.

Just a thing, when the engine began to stop did you try to put the choke on ?

Start to eliminating the fuel fault. One "solution" after one. :wink:

Hope it help you
Mich
I love your writing Michel. It makes me think of good coffee, fabulous croissants and the smell of Gitanes or Disque Bleu. Fuel arriving well (not sickly) and the remaining carbs taking the engine on (like soldiers helping a wounded comrade) are lovely expressions.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#15 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by rfs1957 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:28 am

Fifteen years ago, I spent hours, spread over weeks, and towed the car twice, chasing down an electrical problem that turned out to be that almost ALL the HT leads were breaking down to earth, in the hidden area where they tuck down alongside the block on their way down to the distributor.

Slipping a bit of rag under the loom was all it took.

I say "Fifteen years" in order to emphasise that I've got a LOT better since then.

But the symptoms were EXACTLY the same - and they involved an MoT station, so I'm obviously right.
Rory
3.8 OTS Cream 877393 Built May 28th 1962
1978 Mini Van
(plus bevel and belt single-cylinder Ducatis)

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Mich7920
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#16 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by Mich7920 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:54 am

Hi Peter,
Well I just stop to laugh...
I'm going to take more English lessons and perhaps that what I'm going to write will smell tea, pudding and pipe tobacco as Sherlock.
For the smell of Big Block, pancakes and Camel, it will come in a second time ...

Mich
Michel
1965 E Type FHC - On the road - 1963 E Type OTS - Angus Restoration
Gran Torino Sport 1975 - Renault 4cv 1956 - CItroen 15/6 1951 - CItroen Traction 1945
Citroen Coupé docteur 5Hp 1924 - Citroen B12 1926 - Torpedo Sygma 1913
Harley D. 1915 sidecar

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#17 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by 64etype » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:46 pm

In this case I believe the odds favor an electrical problem, however, my old pick up truck exhibited similar symptoms as a result of debris clogging the in-tank fuel pick up screen. The particles would migrate toward the woven "sock" when the engine was running and slowly restrict the fuel flow until the engine stopped. The debris would fall away from the sock when the suction stopped and the engine would restart. Repeat 15-20 minutes later.
Eric

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#18 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by Heuer » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:00 pm

Certainly Eric's idea is worth pursuing as the fuel tank sump filter can be overwhelmed with debris once the car is moving and gets churned up. Remove the tank filter and see what comes out. Alternatively drive the car until it stops, leave the ignition on and pull the fuel pipe off the filter and check fuel spews out. Obviously worth having a second pair of hands to switch off the ignition on command! Other thing is to make sure you have the correct fuel cap with a breather hole. When car stops, jump out and remove the fuel cap - there may be an in-rush of air - and try starting the car. Process of elimination.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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#19 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by NickJ » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:23 pm

Have just experienced the same symptoms. Car conks out after 10 miles or so, fiddle around under the bonnet and heh Ho it starts again. Decided it wasn't electrics so dropped the fuel tank sump to find it clogged with flaked paint. Worked out this had come from the tank nozzle when the car was restored. There was also no gauze filter on the bottom of the pick up pipe so what was happening was the flakes clogged the pick up pipe. With the ignition switched off the flakes would drop down to bottom of the sump before being agitated again upon start up. Took the pump out and found that too was full of gunge. Filter fitted and all now appears well.
The second time this happened I was v lucky as would have been well and truly clobbered in a radar trap - ground to a halt alongside the police car! :police:
NickJ
Series1 FHC

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#20 Re: 1961 3.8 OTS hot start woes on newly restored car.

Post by Hugo » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:56 pm

[quote="PeterCrespin" I love your writing Michel. It makes me think of good coffee, fabulous croissants and the smell of Gitanes or Disque Bleu. Fuel arriving well (not sickly) and the remaining carbs taking the engine on (like soldiers helping a wounded comrade) are lovely expressions.[/quote]

I too love the way foreigners use the English language. It is so much more creative than that of native English speakers, who tend to speak in cliches.
I had a Swiss piano teacher once who described a hedge as a 'living wall'. And her toilet brush 'went senile' when the bristles fell out.
Hugo Miller - rebuilding an imported Series II OTS & converting to RHD

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