Front oil seal

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#1 Front oil seal

Post by Hugo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:20 am

I have been contemplating grinding off the lips in front of the oil seal on the sump and timing cover before I fit them, so I can pop the seal out in future without taking half the engine to bits. This lip looks like a relic from the days of rope seals - I've never seen another engine with this arrangement.
But I've been looking at it & I reckon it is possible to change the seal by just dropping the sump about half an inch & winkling it out. I think it will clear the timing cover once the sleeve is removed.
Can anybody confirm whether this is possible, before I reach for my angle grinder?
Hugo Miller - rebuilding an imported Series II OTS & converting to RHD

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#2 Re: Front oil seal

Post by Moeregaard » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:12 pm

I've replaced several front main seals over the years and, while dropping the sump and removing the timing cover is a pain in the neck, if the replacement seal is the later silicone/Teflon piece, it should give no trouble for many years when fitted per the instructions. Removing metal is an irreversible process and I'd be reluctant to do this in case the experiment fails to provide the desired result.
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#3 Re: Front oil seal

Post by Hugo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:37 pm

It shouldn't be necessary to remove the timing cover. Not on my car, anyway - it may be that a previous owner had the same idea - the lip has been trimmed back so that when the sleeve is removed, the seal will come out under the lip. Is that standard or is it a mod? I've eased it back a tiny bit more so it's not such a squeeze. I've also taken the studs out of the bottom of the timing cover with the intention of replacing them with UNC allen bolts - my thinking being that I can then just drop the front of the sump about half an inch without dropping the whole thing. That's the theory, anyway.
Are these new teflon seals any good? I only have the old-style rubber lip seal that came with the gasket set. I have used these new-fangled seals on both the Cummins diesels I operate and on a Detroit V8 2 stroke diesel I have in America. They look like flimsy wax paper & just don't seem up to the job. And they tell you to fit them dry, which is just completely counter-intuitive. Is that the type of thing you're talking about?
Hugo Miller - rebuilding an imported Series II OTS & converting to RHD

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#4 Re: Front oil seal

Post by mgcjag » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:09 pm

Look at the similar topics below...lots of info there
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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#5 Re: Front oil seal

Post by Hugo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:18 pm

Ok, I've done a bit of digging, and learned three things;
1) The grinding back of the front lip of the timing cover is a mod that was done on later engines, to enable you to get the seal out without removing the timing cover (and the head etc etc).
2) I was right about this design originally being for a rope seal - on the XK 120's apparently.
3) I don't like the look of these Teflon seals one bit. They are too big for the hole and are meant to 'squeeze' into the hole. Doesn't matter if they are distorted, and doesn't matter if they are not round or concentric when installed - they will centre on the sleeve. That's the theory anyway.
I'm sticking with the old type seal!
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#6 Re: Front oil seal

Post by Moeregaard » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:23 pm

The XK-120 and early -140s used an asbestos turd seal up front, to engine no. G.1907; later XK engines used the more familiar oil seal. Sometime during XJ-6 production, Jaguar came up with the silicone/Teflon seal that is far superior to the old oil seal. The part no. is JA-EAC4219. It is important to follow the installation directions to the letter. It's been a few years, but if I recall correctly, the slinger is removed and the seal fitted dry. I installed one when I rebuilt the lump in my '65 FHC in 1991, and it gave no trouble and was still leak-free when I sold the car seven years later.
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#7 Re: Front oil seal

Post by Hugo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:51 pm

Well, I've put the original style seal in there now, so we'll see how long that lasts! Ay least I know what I'm dealing with.
One mistake I made was to not grind the lip off the sump and timing cover altogether. Then I could just have hoiked the seal out when it needed replacing without any further dismantling. Also I didn't realise just how far that sleeve disappears into the oil deal. Nothing to grab hold of there. Made worse by the fact that I put a bit of Wellseal on the shaft to help the 'O' ring.
Still, It'll be a while before I have to worry about that I hope ;)
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#8 Re: Front oil seal

Post by ALAN COCHRANE » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:15 pm

Mark

I need to order a new front oil seal and was very interested in the comments about the Teflon version. The part number you list only seems to bring up the XKs Unlimited site.
The SNG part number is C24611 which claims to have superseded EAC4219. Does anyone know if this is also Teflon?
Cheers

Alan
1962 S1 OTS-850389,1968 Triumph TR250, 1971 Triumph GT6 Mk3, 2008 Porsche Boxster RS60 Spyder

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#9 Re: Front oil seal

Post by 64etype » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:50 pm

I don't have the part numbers for he Teflon seal/spacer handy, But I would caution against attempting an installation with the engine in the car. The outer circumference is too large for the recess (at least on a 3.8) and absolutely must be fettled to fit. No, it will not find center on its own. I used it with success, but installed it during the engine rebuild. The outer edge had to be reduced and it was tehn placed in the recess with sealant. Another friend tried it (twice) with the engine in the car and it leaked badly both times. He gave up and solved the leak with a standard lip seal. The are numerous threads on this subject on J-L. Highly recommended during a full, engine-out rebuild. Otherwise, no.
Eric

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#10 Re: Front oil seal

Post by Hugo » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:04 pm

I haven't actually seen one of these in the flesh, or should I say in the Teflon, but from what I've read, the outside is soft & spongy & should squash up into the hole. It says it doesn't matter if it isn't round or isn't centred, as it will centre on the sleeve anyway.
I didn't like the sound of that so went with the traditional lip seal.
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#11 Re: Front oil seal

Post by ALAN COCHRANE » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:19 pm

Thanks for the replies.
Fortunately my engine will be out of the car in the next week or so, so there shouldn't be any fitting problems whatever I decide to use.
I also had a leak from the rear seal when I first got the car, but this now seems to have stopped. Reading the various threads seems to suggest that a lack of use is the most likely culprit and the cure is to drive the car more often. This seems to be borne out by my experience. The MOT history shows that often the only mileage the PO did was to and from the test station.

Alan
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#12 Re: Front oil seal

Post by abowie » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:52 pm

Hi Alan.

C24611 is the rubber/nitrile seal.

EAC8815 is the teflon lip seal.

If you currently have the rubber seal and convert to the teflon one you will need to remove the oil slinger on the crank.

You also must replace the seal runner distance piece as the surface smoothness requirement for the teflon seal is quite stringent and these seals will leak like a bitch if you don't put them in properly. Ask me how I know...

The final trick with the seal is that it comes mounted on a yellow plastic tube which looks like it's there to aid installation. It's not; it's there to protect the seal edge and in any event the seal is backwards on the tube if you use it the way logic would suggest. Take it off the yellow tube. The Georgia Jag site has a good walk through on teflon seal installation.

Good luck.
Andrew.
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http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#13 Re: Front oil seal

Post by 64etype » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:55 pm

The Georgia Jag site is where the perception that the seal will self center originated. It won't. Read these threads

https://forums.jag-lovers.com/t/e-type- ... seal/87988
https://forums.jag-lovers.com/t/e-type- ... /120011/16
https://forums.jag-lovers.com/t/e-type- ... seal/86996

By the way, I have the Teflon seal at the front and the Terry's Jaguar seal kit at the rear. So far, zero leaks at either end....one small drip around the oil filter area.
Eric

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#14 Re: Front oil seal

Post by Moeregaard » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:34 pm

ALAN COCHRANE wrote:Mark

I need to order a new front oil seal and was very interested in the comments about the Teflon version. The part number you list only seems to bring up the XKs Unlimited site.
The SNG part number is C24611 which claims to have superseded EAC4219. Does anyone know if this is also Teflon?
Cheers

Alan
Apologies for any confusion. I dug a little deeper in to the XKs Unlimited catalog, and the p/n shown for the upgraded seal is apparently JA-10527, and this is a kit containing the front (Teflon) seal, rear turd seal, rubber sump seal, oil-pump O-rings, and relief tube-to-sump O-ring. This is taken from my hard-copy catalog that is a few years old, so there may have been changes made to part numbers since.
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Former owner '65FHC, #1E30036

Planning on getting E-Type No. 3 as soon as possible....

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#15 Re: Front oil seal

Post by ALAN COCHRANE » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:56 pm

Thanks everyone for the info.
I checked out the Jag Lovers links and I've been put off the Teflon seal. I don't want to start removing the oil slinger etc to allow it to fit. I'm going to stick with the original type seal which seems to have a higher success rate, or at least a lesser chance of being fitted incorrectly.
I'll be interested to see what seal is currently fitted. The leak has steadily worsened over the years and the car had done very limited mileage between 2011 and the last rebuild in 2006. I've managed to put at least 1500-2000miles on it every year since, so hopefully this will be enough to prevent the rear seal from leaking again and be leak free at the front as well.

I'll let you know.

Alan
1962 S1 OTS-850389,1968 Triumph TR250, 1971 Triumph GT6 Mk3, 2008 Porsche Boxster RS60 Spyder

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