Hi guys,
It seems that after fitting all the innards to my bonnet, it has distorted itself a bit. I thought I should assemble it, fit the flanges, align it to the car (this is where I am now), glue the flanges, lock down the bonnet so the glue can settle properly, remove bonnet, paint and so on.
Now, it is out of centre. I made a centre line using a felt tip pen, so I can see it‘s about 3-5 mm wrong. I can also see it on the wing ends, the left one collides wirh the lock, the right one has plenty of clearance.
I then loosened all 8 hinge bolts - but it seems I am unable to gain more way on th RH side. On LH I could of course ad a shim, selfmade, to move it outwards a bit, say 3 mm.
All I can see are the following options:
- ovalize the hinge holes
- thin out the hinge „ear“ piece, but then the plastik insert will have to be shortened
- cut of a bit from the carrier frame on the car. If needed shorten the „tube“ which forms the hinge
Any other (better) way ?
The other problems seem manageable- it has to go backwards a bit, but I can take out a shim on the front that‘ll help, maybe enough.
One mor thing will be the LH wing to sill gap- I cannot add more shims to front left hinge on top, and it‘s not enough.
Oh and on both sides the quarter panels behind the wheels do touch / hind the sill end panels. Will need to maybe cut and reseld, sadly. A few mm to far behind... and no idea how to place them more forward inside the bonnet.
Final thing- the 4 springs do not keep the bonnet upwards far enough. So, I‘ll put the car on the front on stands, so that I can tilt the bonnet to be vertical. Thus I can work on it a bit better plus test it when needed.
Carsten
Centering the bonnet / hinges at limit ?
#1 Centering the bonnet / hinges at limit ?
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650
| Link: | |
| BBcode: | |
| HTML: | |
| Hide post links |
#2 Re: Centering the bonnet / hinges at limit ?
Its good to have a centre line [in felt tip], but the side fit tells us whats going on up top ?
You seem to be saying...... it measures offset, it looks its offset, and the sides tell me it is offset ?
Therefore it is the fulcrum point ?
jag bonnet is mounted on a pair of aluminium hinges that are nylon bush bolted to the underbelly. Do NOT alter the hinges or bushes and bolting in anyway. That is your start point ???
The underbelly has the upper and mainn bonnet bolted [ and braced] to it........ so the direction and influnce of offset .... ie too far right ,,or too far left is set by the position on the hinges, and how the Underbelly connects and fits to the hinges?
Did you move the backing plates [realtive position] when you repaired the hinge plate cages?
If the front frame is square and true position, and hinges are in datum position...... and underbelly is correct, and top is bolted at right line........ ? start at hinges, ?
You seem to be saying...... it measures offset, it looks its offset, and the sides tell me it is offset ?
Therefore it is the fulcrum point ?
jag bonnet is mounted on a pair of aluminium hinges that are nylon bush bolted to the underbelly. Do NOT alter the hinges or bushes and bolting in anyway. That is your start point ???
The underbelly has the upper and mainn bonnet bolted [ and braced] to it........ so the direction and influnce of offset .... ie too far right ,,or too far left is set by the position on the hinges, and how the Underbelly connects and fits to the hinges?
Did you move the backing plates [realtive position] when you repaired the hinge plate cages?
If the front frame is square and true position, and hinges are in datum position...... and underbelly is correct, and top is bolted at right line........ ? start at hinges, ?
| Link: | |
| BBcode: | |
| HTML: | |
| Hide post links |
#3 Re: Centering the bonnet / hinges at limit ?
Hi Rob,
The front frame looks straight. I may have to alter it / lemme check first.
Yes, the cages for the hinge plates were opened, with a hacksaw. Someone had broken them open, remooved the plates, thats it. I made exact repros from sheet metal (in 6 mm thickness not 1/4). Lucky me he did only open one side, so I closed them, and shut-welded them, so that they are now exactly as they left the factory.
I also had the vertical part of the underpan drilled out, de-rusted, painted etc. it, but I drilled some holes through the vertical part and the underpan, so I could 1:1 assemble it later by using bolts.
Hm....are there no shims used between the hinges and the frames ? I foun none, but it was quite a mess, and I took it apart 9 yrs ago. It was all hold together by 40 some washers, and one hinge broken of.
Carsten
P.S. - might this be an idea ?
http://classicjaguar.com/cjparts/hinge.php
I think it would „only“ give me more up/down and front/rear clearance, but not left-right.
The front frame looks straight. I may have to alter it / lemme check first.
Yes, the cages for the hinge plates were opened, with a hacksaw. Someone had broken them open, remooved the plates, thats it. I made exact repros from sheet metal (in 6 mm thickness not 1/4). Lucky me he did only open one side, so I closed them, and shut-welded them, so that they are now exactly as they left the factory.
I also had the vertical part of the underpan drilled out, de-rusted, painted etc. it, but I drilled some holes through the vertical part and the underpan, so I could 1:1 assemble it later by using bolts.
Hm....are there no shims used between the hinges and the frames ? I foun none, but it was quite a mess, and I took it apart 9 yrs ago. It was all hold together by 40 some washers, and one hinge broken of.
Carsten
P.S. - might this be an idea ?
http://classicjaguar.com/cjparts/hinge.php
I think it would „only“ give me more up/down and front/rear clearance, but not left-right.
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650
| Link: | |
| BBcode: | |
| HTML: | |
| Hide post links |
#4 Re: Centering the bonnet / hinges at limit ?
Carsten,
I feel your pain; I spent months and months trying to get my bonnet to fit well.
The problem is, every time you take it apart and put it back together, it changes shape.
You (and I) rebuilt our under pans and if the horizontal edge above the hinges end up leaning slightly forward, the bonnet will sit lower and further away from the bulkhead. If they sit back slightly the opposite effect will be seen.
If you loosen the bolts holding the wings to the centre panel, you may be able to move the wings backwards/forwards by a few millimetres.
If you have drawn a line down the centre of your centre panel, this is where you should start.
Get a laser level ( or a piece of string) and point it down the bonnet from the front. It should go through the centre of the centre windscreen wiper box (does the 2+2 have a centre wiper?); if not, it might be necessary to find the centre of the scuttle panel, perhaps by measuring the windscreen aperture.
Anyway, it should go through the centre and line up with the centre of the raised area for the drain hole in the centre of the rear hatch surround.
If you extend the line of the flanges on each side of the centre panel, they should be the same distance from the side of the windscreen at the drip rail on both sides.
This is the starting point; if this is not correct, you will have no chance to get the rest right. It might be necessary to add/remove the vertical hinge shims to get it lined up and/or move the bonnet by loosening the hinges and moving it across the car.
By the way, I found the easiest way to do this was if I wanted to move the bonnet to the right by say 5mm, I would loosen the left hinge four bolts and hinge bolt and pull the hinge away from the bonnet frame by the 5mm, tighten the four bolts on the bonnet, leaving the hinge bolt loose for now and then move over to the right hinge and loosen the four bolts on the bonnet, then go back to the left side and tighten the hinge bolt.
This will push the bonnet across the car to the right by the 5mm; finally tighten up the four bolts on the right side.
If the front of the bonnet appears to need to be higher, lock it at the bulkhead, put a jack under the belly pan (with some protection) remove the hinge bolts and jack it up to see how much higher it needs to be, to be correct. You bonnet frame could be bent downwards, but it is more likely to be something wrong with the hinge points on the belly pan. It may even be necessary to shorten the wings above the sills.
Get the centre panel right first and see what needs to be done next.
Is the bonnet level from side to side?
Level the car across the sills at the doors or chassis rails and check if the bonnet frame is level. Try to check the level of the bonnet as far forward as you can; you can do this with a long spirit level supported above the wing seams with equal size supports to clear the power bulge.
In my experience it is very easy to alter something and find the answer to the problem is elsewhere.
You need to measure everything.
I don't think these hinges will work for you; they would appear to drop the front of the bonnet.
Your springs will have more effect when the bumpers and lights are fitted to counter balance the bonnet.
Paul
I feel your pain; I spent months and months trying to get my bonnet to fit well.
The problem is, every time you take it apart and put it back together, it changes shape.
You (and I) rebuilt our under pans and if the horizontal edge above the hinges end up leaning slightly forward, the bonnet will sit lower and further away from the bulkhead. If they sit back slightly the opposite effect will be seen.
If you loosen the bolts holding the wings to the centre panel, you may be able to move the wings backwards/forwards by a few millimetres.
If you have drawn a line down the centre of your centre panel, this is where you should start.
Get a laser level ( or a piece of string) and point it down the bonnet from the front. It should go through the centre of the centre windscreen wiper box (does the 2+2 have a centre wiper?); if not, it might be necessary to find the centre of the scuttle panel, perhaps by measuring the windscreen aperture.
Anyway, it should go through the centre and line up with the centre of the raised area for the drain hole in the centre of the rear hatch surround.
If you extend the line of the flanges on each side of the centre panel, they should be the same distance from the side of the windscreen at the drip rail on both sides.
This is the starting point; if this is not correct, you will have no chance to get the rest right. It might be necessary to add/remove the vertical hinge shims to get it lined up and/or move the bonnet by loosening the hinges and moving it across the car.
By the way, I found the easiest way to do this was if I wanted to move the bonnet to the right by say 5mm, I would loosen the left hinge four bolts and hinge bolt and pull the hinge away from the bonnet frame by the 5mm, tighten the four bolts on the bonnet, leaving the hinge bolt loose for now and then move over to the right hinge and loosen the four bolts on the bonnet, then go back to the left side and tighten the hinge bolt.
This will push the bonnet across the car to the right by the 5mm; finally tighten up the four bolts on the right side.
If the front of the bonnet appears to need to be higher, lock it at the bulkhead, put a jack under the belly pan (with some protection) remove the hinge bolts and jack it up to see how much higher it needs to be, to be correct. You bonnet frame could be bent downwards, but it is more likely to be something wrong with the hinge points on the belly pan. It may even be necessary to shorten the wings above the sills.
Get the centre panel right first and see what needs to be done next.
Is the bonnet level from side to side?
Level the car across the sills at the doors or chassis rails and check if the bonnet frame is level. Try to check the level of the bonnet as far forward as you can; you can do this with a long spirit level supported above the wing seams with equal size supports to clear the power bulge.
In my experience it is very easy to alter something and find the answer to the problem is elsewhere.
You need to measure everything.
I don't think these hinges will work for you; they would appear to drop the front of the bonnet.
Your springs will have more effect when the bumpers and lights are fitted to counter balance the bonnet.
Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340
| Link: | |
| BBcode: | |
| HTML: | |
| Hide post links |
#5 Re: Centering the bonnet / hinges at limit ?
Hi Paul,
Tomorrow is another day they say, I‘ll give your tips a try.
Yes the 2+2 (S1) has a centre wiper - I am relating the bonnet centre line to it.
Very very hopefully your hinge tip will pull it over as much as I need it.
What I do fear is that- I have to paint it still. I thought I should fit it, then take it apart, paint the innards, fit it, and have the outside painted by a pro.
I see no other way ? If I paint it now I would damage it too much.
How on earth did the factory do that job ?
Carsten
Tomorrow is another day they say, I‘ll give your tips a try.
Yes the 2+2 (S1) has a centre wiper - I am relating the bonnet centre line to it.
Very very hopefully your hinge tip will pull it over as much as I need it.
What I do fear is that- I have to paint it still. I thought I should fit it, then take it apart, paint the innards, fit it, and have the outside painted by a pro.
I see no other way ? If I paint it now I would damage it too much.
How on earth did the factory do that job ?
Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650
| Link: | |
| BBcode: | |
| HTML: | |
| Hide post links |
#6 Re: Centering the bonnet / hinges at limit ?
Hi Carsten,
Yes; these are the reasons it took me so long
The factory simply sprayed it in one piece, although the individual parts were probably dipped/primed first.
Once you do get it to fit, you will probably need to dismantle it to spray primer on the individual panels and colour on the flanges where the wings and belly pan fit, then reassemble it. If you attempt to finish it at this stage I can guarantee it won’t fit together properly, you will still need to do some more adjustment.
I sprayed the inside when it was bolted together; I have not yet sprayed the outside, other than the belly pan.
The reason for a centre line down the bonnet is not so much to line it up with the centre of the wipers, but more to see if the bonnet is at an angle to the centre line of the car. If one wing is touching the bulkhead and the other isn’t, it does not necessarily mean that the bonnet is twisting to the side that is touching; it could be that that wing is misplaced or simply longer.
I know your bonnet is made up of panels that did not originally come with your bonnet, or the car for that matter, so unfortunately I think there is plenty of room for error.
My bonnet was original to the car, although every panel was dented or distorted, but it was still very difficult to make it fit properly.
Paul
Yes; these are the reasons it took me so long
The factory simply sprayed it in one piece, although the individual parts were probably dipped/primed first.
Once you do get it to fit, you will probably need to dismantle it to spray primer on the individual panels and colour on the flanges where the wings and belly pan fit, then reassemble it. If you attempt to finish it at this stage I can guarantee it won’t fit together properly, you will still need to do some more adjustment.
I sprayed the inside when it was bolted together; I have not yet sprayed the outside, other than the belly pan.
The reason for a centre line down the bonnet is not so much to line it up with the centre of the wipers, but more to see if the bonnet is at an angle to the centre line of the car. If one wing is touching the bulkhead and the other isn’t, it does not necessarily mean that the bonnet is twisting to the side that is touching; it could be that that wing is misplaced or simply longer.
I know your bonnet is made up of panels that did not originally come with your bonnet, or the car for that matter, so unfortunately I think there is plenty of room for error.
My bonnet was original to the car, although every panel was dented or distorted, but it was still very difficult to make it fit properly.
Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340
| Link: | |
| BBcode: | |
| HTML: | |
| Hide post links |
#7 Re: Centering the bonnet / hinges at limit ?
Solved !
Paul‘s tip, see above, did the trick- loosen the 8 hing bolts, loosen the 2 main bolts. Hammer the RH hinge outwards, lock down the 4 bolts. Tighten the RH main bolt, and the bonnet mooves over. Tigthen left main bolt, tighten left 4 hinge bolts, job done.
The best idea I had today was to lift the car upwards on the front axle, and to put it on axle tripod stands.
Thus I can now tilt the bonnet vertically, and this increases workspace dramatically.
I could also put just one more shim on the top front LH side, so that the non-parallel horizontal line at the LH rear wing now is parallel. And I took out all the front shims, so that the rear end of the bonnet forms a nice parallel line to the bulkhead, and sits nicely on the new rubber.
Now, I have to solve:
- both lower wings do not match the curvature nicely, RH is a bit bent outwards, and LH has to be bent inwards a bit. I tried to jiggle with the flanges and the small 4-bolt stiffeners on top of the wings, but the curvature just is not right.
- the LH sill to wing distance is too large. I have to investigate more, but maybe I have to unroll it to gain another few mm, so that it would still be a bit wide- but its a dark blue car, and thats ok then. I will not cut of the wing and insert metal, I would only distort or destroy it.
Carsten
Paul‘s tip, see above, did the trick- loosen the 8 hing bolts, loosen the 2 main bolts. Hammer the RH hinge outwards, lock down the 4 bolts. Tighten the RH main bolt, and the bonnet mooves over. Tigthen left main bolt, tighten left 4 hinge bolts, job done.
The best idea I had today was to lift the car upwards on the front axle, and to put it on axle tripod stands.
Thus I can now tilt the bonnet vertically, and this increases workspace dramatically.
I could also put just one more shim on the top front LH side, so that the non-parallel horizontal line at the LH rear wing now is parallel. And I took out all the front shims, so that the rear end of the bonnet forms a nice parallel line to the bulkhead, and sits nicely on the new rubber.
Now, I have to solve:
- both lower wings do not match the curvature nicely, RH is a bit bent outwards, and LH has to be bent inwards a bit. I tried to jiggle with the flanges and the small 4-bolt stiffeners on top of the wings, but the curvature just is not right.
- the LH sill to wing distance is too large. I have to investigate more, but maybe I have to unroll it to gain another few mm, so that it would still be a bit wide- but its a dark blue car, and thats ok then. I will not cut of the wing and insert metal, I would only distort or destroy it.
Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650
| Link: | |
| BBcode: | |
| HTML: | |
| Hide post links |
#8 Re: Centering the bonnet / hinges at limit ?
Carsten, sounds good ........ and you have started with hinges then move away, slowly slowly.......... correct approach
soon you wil answer your queston...... when should I paint edges ???
keep up the good work............ unloosen/ adjust/ tighten a bit....... rinse and repeat ?
soon you wil answer your queston...... when should I paint edges ???
keep up the good work............ unloosen/ adjust/ tighten a bit....... rinse and repeat ?
| Link: | |
| BBcode: | |
| HTML: | |
| Hide post links |