Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Technical advice Q&A

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64OTS
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#1 Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by 64OTS » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:16 am

I am fitting the new Robey RH outer sill on my series 1 OTS, or at least trying to. During trial fitting, I can't get the lower door gap less than about 1/4", which seems much larger than the other gaps of about 1/8" or less. The only way I can think to reduce it is to re-bend the the top sill flanges which mount against the inner sill and A & B posts. This will not be easy to do without a proper metal bending machine I think? Or is this a normal gap?, certainly what was left of the original had a much smaller gap. I could extend the bottom of the door panel, is this viable? Secondly, the top flanges that butt up in the A & B posts can't be welded in place as they are hidden by the outer panels. Do these need to be removed to weld inside or do I just weld the outer panels together? Any help gratefully received while I go & wrestle with the outer sill again....
Tim 1964 4.2 OTS

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christopher storey
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#2 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by christopher storey » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:17 am

It is not unusual for the top of the sill to need lead loading in order to achieve a suitable gap , and that is what you will need to do in this case . These bodies essentially were hand made and that accounts for the dimensional variations

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angelw
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#3 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by angelw » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:09 am

Hello 64OTS,
The top line of the sill (the surface that creates the bottom edge door gap) is an area where lead was seldom, if ever, used in the factory (I've never seen any evidence on unmolested cars). Where the sill is joined to to the body at the bottom of the A and B pillars should be a straight line running past the bottom edge of the door to give a gap of around 4mm. Sure, there was a lot of hand work employed in building these cars, but its a long draw of the bow to say they were hand built. Jigs and Fixtures were used to hold the various panels in correct alignment and for the most part (particularly the tub) the construction was reasonable. Lead was often used on the area of the sill where the front wings closed on the sill forward of the front cowl.

If you get the top surface of the outer sill to fit closely with the bottom edge of the A and B pillars were their respective outer panels mate with the sill, then you should have a bottom edge door gap of around 4mm (see the two attached pictures following.

Image

Image

I suspect that the folded section where the Outer Sill attaches to the Inner Sill (in the length of the door area) is influencing the fit of the sill. If this is the case, I would be altering the folds that forms the return. Because of the change in the folded section of the sill, forward of the front cowl (the panel between the front edge of door and rear edge of front wing), you will need to have someone with a break press, or loose leaf folder to refold it for you.

Regards,

Bill

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paulsco
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#4 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by paulsco » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:03 am

If you look at a cross section of your original sill and compare it with the MR sill, you will see that the radius is much bigger on the MR panel, i.e. the original is much shaper, so in my view it needs some lead to sharpen it up.
You will need to remove the bottom part of the rear wing above the sill and a part or all of the front scuttle panel; the sill doesn’t weld to the outer panels, but the edges of the inner sill.


Image




Image




Image

Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340

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paulsco
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#5 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by paulsco » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:14 am

BTW, you can get more acurate sills; the MR ones are ok, but Monocoque Metalworks do what appears to be a better one:

http://www.monocoque-metalworks.com/mai ... available/

Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340

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christopher storey
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#6 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by christopher storey » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:02 pm

In case it helps, I attach 3 pics which show how it was done on one side of my fhc, and the eventual outcome. Arguing rather against what I said earlier, I do not think that Hutsons leaded the top of the sill in this case, but still got a very good fit


Image

Image

Image

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#7 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by paulsco » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:44 pm

Christopher,

I notice that the edges of your sills are far sharper than mine, which is why I made the comment.

Mine were MR sills, perhaps Hutsons have a different sorce?

Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340

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288gto
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#8 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by 288gto » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:03 pm

Hutsons make their own sills because the Robey ones are the wrong shape.

The ones in Christopher's picture are Hutson ones. They are distinctive in that they are Zintec coated and are of a thicker and closer to the original gauge.

I wouldn't want to lead or fill the tops of the sills as this will among other things throw out the line from the sill to bonnet gap in relation to the sill to door if that makes sense.
Probably not what you want to hear but I sent my Robeys sills back and bought some from Andy at Hutsons after mentioning I was struggling. I still had to tweak the Hutsons ones to get the curvature correct but the quality and fit was like night and day.
I think there are some pics in my restoration thread on here if Photo#ucket hasn't deleted them.

Image

AltyIan on here used and documented them too in his Series 1 ots blog.

Simon
Simon
1969 S2 OTS

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Durango2k
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#9 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by Durango2k » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:13 pm

I had a strange find on my car regarding the sills- they had been changed, I am pretty sure, by PO- and what I found was that the front right wing was too long. It sat nicely on the sill, behind the wheel, and was not resting on the top rubber.

I finally bend it open on the lower edge, un-rolled it, then re- rolled it 6 mm higher (that is almost 1/4“), the it was a perfect gap.

No idea how that could happen, maybe they had the same problem and put the sill upward. The bonnet is not original to this car.

To re-roll it, I bought a long metal bar, 6 mm thick (used it to make the metal plates for the bonnet hinges which were not there when I bought it), and fixed it with grip vices in the correct place. Then used a 250gr hammer (yes!), and bent it over.

Before doing so, I slightly rounded of the metal bar edges, to ease the bend, make it less sharp. Finally, de-rust again, paint the 5 mm wire inside the rolled edge, put it in place, fold and close, job done. It now kinda meets the rear wing stiffener which is welded on the lower end, but I cut it away by 1 mm so it worked.

All was fine on the LH side, it was just RH which was wrong.

Image

Image

Image


Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 75’ Concept Centaur MK1, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650

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64OTS
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#10 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by 64OTS » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:15 pm

Thanks for all the advice and pics, it certainly helps. I know what I need to do now, which is re-bend the top flanges to reduce the distance between the top of that and the lower outer panel. I am going to see if I can work out some way of doing it today without ruining the panel. Otherwise I am happy with the general profile of the sill.
Tim 1964 4.2 OTS

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Airborne62
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#11 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by Airborne62 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:17 am

+1 on Monocoque Metalworks. Chuck's parts are spot on. MR sills had the wrong radius for my early 62 FHC.
Airborne62
'62 FHC

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Durango2k
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#12 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by Durango2k » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:41 am

Sadly Chuck and MM are in the US, that‘s too far away to post large metal parts. Next time I am near I‘ll visit them, but I asked for small parts - it made no sense due to freight costs.

Poor Europeans...

Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 75’ Concept Centaur MK1, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650

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paulsco
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#13 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by paulsco » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:09 pm

Simon,
I wasn't aware that Hutsons made sills when I was doing mine.
I saw them today at Jaguar Spares and the edges are much sharper than the MR version; too late for me now thought :-(

I leaded the area under the wing as well as the door to keep it level; it didnt require all that much lead to sharpen the edge a bit, but it would have been better if I had the Hutsons sills in the first place.

Image

Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340

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64OTS
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#14 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by 64OTS » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:42 am

I have managed to reduce the gap using nothing more than my vice to gently squeeze the top flange. A bit more trial fitting and small adjustments to get the angles right and I think I will have it as I want it. Spent an hour or so up to now, not too bad. I was hoping to weld the top flanges first but I may need to do the main part of the panel with correct gap, then work around the edges. I will also cut out the A & B post outer panels to get to the flanges in there. Thanks for all the advice.
Tim 1964 4.2 OTS

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chrisfell
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#15 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by chrisfell » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:04 pm

Repro panels always required fettling to fit. Not just for E-Types. I recall flitch plates and arch repairs needing reshaping or even cutting to fit, for example on a Mk1 Escort. The skill is that of a panel beater, the clue is in the name!
Chris '67 S1 2+2

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64OTS
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#16 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by 64OTS » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:39 am

I finally got the sill on last week, using various amounts of metal shaping & bending etc. the end result isn't too bad either! I am not looking forward to doing lead loading - does anyone know of an alternative that is easier to apply?
Tim 1964 4.2 OTS

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#17 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by 64OTS » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:44 am

Here we go again - now fitting the LH outer sill. This is proving much harder than the RH, at present the lower door gap is about 1/2" !! It also doesn't seem to want to fit where its supposed to go properly for some reason (sits low and doesn't meet the inner sill line at the flange - need to investigate why it won't go up further next weekend). It is also difficult to get the rear end over the back upright panel as it has to be offered up at an angle and then swung in at the bottom. The back part of the sill catches on this panel. (I hope that explains it). I have had to cut out various pieces mainly around this back area and also where the seal channels come down from the sides of the door to get it in. This is going to be a lot of flange reworking and checking I think..
Tim 1964 4.2 OTS

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64OTS
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#18 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by 64OTS » Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:41 am

Wow - this is proving to be a lot harder than the other side, but I'm nearly there. The rear B post flange I have had to compress by almost 1/2", gradually sloping along to about 1/4" at the A post. Not easy just using a normal bench vice!! I will do some final reworking this weekend including reshaping to make the sill curve in more where it bends in under the door panel. It hardly looks like the panel I got originally!! But at least I've got the door gap to just over 1/8" which matches the side gaps now. Welding it on will be the nice easy part...
Tim 1964 4.2 OTS

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64OTS
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#19 Re: Outer Sill Fitting advice please

Post by 64OTS » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:47 am

Finally got it done with acceptable door gap!! Just got to weld in the fillers where I cut into the A & B posts now. There may also need to be some reshaping around where the sill meets the rear wheel arch (slightly short). I think the main issue with these sills appears to be that the bend underneath the door line needs to be more angled in towards the bottom of the car, as otherwise the curvature worked OK on mine. I would still like to know if anyone has an acceptable alternative to lead loading? Thanks.
Tim 1964 4.2 OTS

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