Engine side frames

Technical advice Q&A

Topic author
sjclark
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 8:18 pm
Location: Hampshire UK
Great Britain

#1 Engine side frames

Post by sjclark » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:29 am

is is possible to remove and replace the engine side frames without removing the engine and gearbox? If it's possible, is it wise to do so???
Regards
Steve
S 1.5 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 3735
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

#2 Re: Engine side frames

Post by mgcjag » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:03 am

Hi Steve....yes it is possible....really depends on your work area and ability to remove the engine....first you want the bonnet off......support the car and engine from below and disconnect torsion bars, you can then remove the frames...you then have the option to just replace the frames or remove engine forwards then replace frames and put the engine back in after from above or below.....so you have quite a few options....Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
sjclark
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 8:18 pm
Location: Hampshire UK
Great Britain

#3 Update Re: Engine side frames

Post by sjclark » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:48 am

After a lot of thinking and research, I decided, back in May this year, to tackle the job myself, and to take out the engine, gearbox, etc. and not try a piecemeal approach. In retrospect I'm glad I did it this way, as I think the "one side at a time" approach would just not have been practical - at least on my car.

I bought new frames from a well known fabricator/supplier in the Midlands.

I had access to a large covered working area, plus a good sized pit (longer than the car) and an engine crane.

I took about 100 photographs of the dismantling process. I can't stress enough how important this was in the reassembly processes. I still didn't take enough of the details, and had to re-do a number of steps as the obvious sequence of reassembly was not the right sequence - and the Service Manual does not always go into detail when you need it to!

The result is a newly installed set of frames, and work completed on some of the other, normally less accessible bits, mainly involving the clutch and the valve clearances.

The car passed its MOT early in August, with no comments re other work needed, now that advisories on MOTs are no more.

I spent about £3000+ on parts, frame painting, etc, and about ten weeks full time (40-50 hours per week) either directly working on the car, or in cleaning, inspecting and refurbishing or replacing as necessary the parts removed.

Regarding lessons learned,
  • The work was not that difficult, just time consuming - probably took about 3 weeks more than I expected. I had a Jaguar Service Manual and a Spare Parts Catalogue with me at all times
  • The RHS frame was in overall good shape except for the bit which I first noticed - it had suffered from long-term exposure to brake fluid just below the reservoir, and was holed in a couple of places due to local corrosion
Image
  • The LHS frame showed no external signs of corrosion or damage, but had lots of rust flakes and powder inside, so it was only a matter of time till it too would have failed
  • The bonnet had been off just a few years ago, so its removal was not difficult, with four people doing the lifting and plenty of old pillows etc to keep the bonnet from contacting other bodywork. I removed the bonnet locating pegs from the bonnet to avoid gouges during removal/refitting
  • Engine/gearbox removal would not have been possible without an engine tilting attachment fitted to the crane
  • The front of the bulkhead was very sound, with no evidence of corrosion and/or seized/rusted frame bolts
  • Placing new frames next to those I had removed to see how good a fit I could expect was quite surprising, and suggested fitting the new ones might be a challenge. I did two trial fittings before sending the frames for final painting. The frame supplier was very helpful at this stage as I visited their premises and saw them do a trial fit of my new frames - which I now suspected might not fit - on another body, and began to appreciate that there was quite a bit of "persuasion" and levering involved in the process, requiring tapered alignment pins etc.
  • My second trial fit involved leaving essentially all the frame bolts and fixings pretty much loose, except for the two through bolts on the chassis rails right at the bottom, near the reaction plate, then progressively tightening till the whole frame set, including the picture frame and the bonnet support frame, was tight.
    I did a datum check at this point and found the bonnet frame front cross member was level, having checked the body was also level, so the frame went off for painting
  • Then it was time for cleaning and inspection of the parts removed from the under-bonnet area. Most of the parts simply needed a good wire brushing or a gentle blasting (is there such a thing?) to get old paint off, and the removed parts were duly primed and finish painted
  • Removing the Gearbox from the engine was quite straightforward, but there were a couple of surprises in the clutch.
    First, the pressure plate had a couple of blue marks on it, at about 180 degrees apart and about 2 inches (50mm) long, indicating significant(?) local overheating. There had never been any operating problem with the clutch in the 5+ years since the clutch and flywheel were last replaced, nor any deliberate or inadvertent abuse of the clutch while I owned the car.
    Second, the release bearing was in the process of failing, in that the carbon thrust element had separated from the carrier so it was rotating free from the carrier. The carbon block was, however, not cracked, spalled or damaged in any other visible way. Perhaps this somehow led to the surface burning marks?

    The flywheel clutch surface was smooth, unmarked and flat, with no obvious reason for the burn marks on the pressure plate. The clutch lining had plenty of life left in it.

    Release bearing and the clutch assembly were replaced as a matter of course
  • Reassembly using the finish painted frames went carefully and reasonably well (with judicious use of tapered bars etc., and the leave it all loose till it's all joined up approach) but some bolts had to be driven into place as the painting had used up any clearance in the frame holes concerned. Very little paint damage to the frames overall, and ready for the torsion bars and front suspension
  • Torsion bar installation and setting went surprisingly well, except for the reaction plate which took quite a bit of effort to get it in place and properly aligned to receive the torsion bar "rabbit ears", with some inevitable paint damage. Getting the rabbit ear bolts in place was pretty straightforward; it was getting the annular sleeve properly seated in the reaction plate which was most challenging.
  • Re-installation of engine and gearbox went pretty well considering I did it single-handed, but caused a couple of scars on the picture frame, despite padding, plastic sheets and to keep the parts separated, etc.

    The engine was reluctant to sit down properly in the space between the frames. This was evident from the fact that the throttle levers at the carbs would not open fully, as they contacted the engine frame top tube. At this time I had re-fitted the rear mount and spring at the back of the gearbox, and loosely assembled the intermediate engine support at the flywheel housing and the main engine mounts. Note that I did not remove the carbs from the manifold at any point in the proceedings as they were working just fine before the start of the job.
    Checking of other cars showed that there should be a (surprisingly small?) 8-10 mm clearance between levers and frame top tube.

    Eventually, lifting the engine front end, levering and refitting the front and centre engine supports, and general careful jiggling got the engine to sit just that missing 10mm higher than it had been.
  • Then it was simply(!!!) a question of re-attaching the various ancillaries, like heater, pipes, tubes radiator, wiring harness, carefully following the photographs I had taken earlier - and realising several of the details had not been photographed, so some of the frame bolts, etc. and other ancillaries had to come off and be reinstalled the right way around
  • Getting the horns to work properly took ages - mainly down to a blown fuse, together with poor and/or loose connections
  • Finding exactly where the clips for the under-bonnet shields actually fitted and getting them into place took a long time. Pay more attention and do lots of pictures when taking them off
  • While the engine was out I took the opportunity to replace and re-set the choke cable system. It was fiddly but nowhere as difficult as it would have been with the carbs and shields in place
  • Brake bleeding was pretty simple, but the brake line from the bulkhead back to the rear subframe had some air in it (pretty much inevitably given the layout) so the rear cylinders had to be done by accessing the almost impossible to reach rear caliper bleed points.
Ride height is perfect as-is.

Checking of the front-end alignment by a local garage showed the camber to be spot-on and the castor angle was soon and easily adjusted. The steering rack rod-ends were reset, and the car drove perfectly afterwards - no pulling or steering/braking issues.

I hope this will help anyone else contemplating this kind of work.

I'm sure a professional restorer experienced in E Type work could have done it more quickly, and with fewer parts reinstalled, found to be wrong, and re-fitted correctly. However I have had a good time doing it all and I now have a full knowledge of my much cherished, and still pretty original, car.
Last edited by sjclark on Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:14 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Regards
Steve
S 1.5 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 3735
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

#4 Re: Engine side frames

Post by mgcjag » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:14 am

Nice write up Steve...great that you tackeled it yourself...as you say you have now learned much more about your E type....just for info its not uncommon to find shims under the engine mounts to raise the engine slightly they have a Jag part number and are an "as required item".......but you solved your problem anyway....im sure your write up will give others the confidence to tackle what looks like daunting jobs...all the best... Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
sjclark
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 8:18 pm
Location: Hampshire UK
Great Britain

#5 Re: Engine side frames

Post by sjclark » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:05 pm

Thanks, Steve, for the appreciative comments.

Happy to discuss with anyone else needing help with this kind of thing. I also have pictures of many steps of the dismantling process, but don't think they will add much without explanation, which I don't have much time for right now. Sorry!

Too busy enjoying the E Type while the weather's still half decent.
Regards
Steve
S 1.5 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

driver
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:48 pm
Great Britain

#6 Re: Engine side frames

Post by driver » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:09 pm

Hi Rob Gill here,
a very interesting post indeed,
i may refer to that in the future.
This forum is a gold mine for the DIY e type owner :thankyouyellow: :thumbsup:
v12 etype 2+2

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
sjclark
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 8:18 pm
Location: Hampshire UK
Great Britain

#7 Re: Engine side frames

Post by sjclark » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:25 pm

Hi Rob,

Fully agree about the usefulness of this forum, and while on the topic, I really appreciate the relative lack of "flaming" of others, excessive personal sensitivity and short tempers which have blighted some other forums which were previously useful and constructive.
Regards
Steve
S 1.5 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


64OTS
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:39 am
Location: Perth
Australia

#8 Re: Engine side frames

Post by 64OTS » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:33 am

Interesting thread and some great info covered here, another example of why this forum is so good. My 64 OTS project is my first Jag so I am learning a lot! I have worked on other cars of the era and I don't have the luxury of a pit or heavy lifting gear but I successfully removed the engine & gearbox by first raising the front of the car (couldn't get enough height to clear the engine though), lowering the engine & box to the floor, separating the gearbox from underneath, then lifting the engine straight up out of the engine bay (needed a slight twist to clear everything). I will replace it the same way I think. I'm sure there are other ways as well. Knowing what I do now, I don't think removing the engine frames separately would be a viable proposition bearing in mind the need to support the engine anyway, and with so little extra work to do it might as well just come out & sit on the ground. Just my thoughts, I'm no expert though I'm sure it has been done.
Tim 1964 4.2 OTS

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

AshM
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:59 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Great Britain

#9 Re: Engine side frames

Post by AshM » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:56 am

Hi Steve

Echoing others appreciation of taking the time to prepare your comprehensive post. Very helpful.

My engine out this winter so your words are already in my 'cut and pasted' library of reference material.

100% agree with the quality of this forum.

cheers
Ash
Series 2 FHC 1970
1R 20607

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Heuer
Administrator
Posts: 12075
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: Nottinghamshire
Great Britain

#10 Re: Engine side frames

Post by Heuer » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:37 pm

You can always bookmark posts that are of interest from within the Forum. Good way of keeping track without the need to cut 'n paste stuff elsewhere. Go to 'Forum Tools (little spanner) at the bottom of the post you are interested in and click 'Bookmark' :thumbsup:
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

Add your E-Type to our World Map: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
sjclark
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 8:18 pm
Location: Hampshire UK
Great Britain

#11 Re: Engine side frames

Post by sjclark » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:17 pm

Thanks for the bookmark reminder...

Sort of knew about it, but could not remember how to do it :oops:
Regards
Steve
S 1.5 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

AshM
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:59 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Great Britain

#12 Re: Engine side frames

Post by AshM » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Thanks David, helpful as always.

Cheers
Ash
Series 2 FHC 1970
1R 20607

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic