4.5 Litre rebuild

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politeperson
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#1 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by politeperson » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:52 pm

Just thinking about my next XK engine build.

This one is the long stud 4.2 from 9WYO. It will go back into 9WYO next year some time, as it is the original engine.

I want to build it up like my current short stud engine, however I want to take it out to 4.5 liters with pistons and liners.

This is because I think a little more low end torque would be exciting. I have another big valve head that needs using and "D type" cams (.39 lift).

Might go 8:1. Might go 9:1 as I can control fueling quite well.

5,000 rpm is more than enough for me, I will be reusing all my fuel injection and ancillaries, so back to the rolling road. Will get in balanced, although I must say judging on me recent experiences they seem pretty sweet anyway.

Anyone know what to buy?

I intend to use a standard crank I think it is more than adequate in shoving an E type about, unless any of the wise have huge objections to this idea.

What do you think? Anyone actually done it?
Last edited by politeperson on Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Its true, but Enzo never said it
Too many E types
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#2 Re: 4.5 Liter rebuild

Post by abowie » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:10 pm

Go 4.7l with a stroker crank.
I want to do this in a Mk2.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
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christopher storey
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#3 Re: 4.5 Liter rebuild

Post by christopher storey » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:12 am

If you think your present setup is short of low speed torque then there will be a reason for it, because the standard 4.2 litre engine has so much low speed torque that it is probably unrivalled . The reasons for loss of torque are usually associated with "improvements", and in descending order of importance in disturbing the torque curve I would suggest these are

fabricated manifolds

hotter than standard camshafts

altered carburation , particularly DCOEs

opening out ports in standard heads

big valve S3 XJ6 heads

It is in my view no accident that the factory setup as to porting , exhausts, and valve timing hardly changed during the life of the engine, the improvements obtained deriving mainly from an increase in cam lift in the early 1950s, the Btype heads and subsequently the straight port heads , and later the 3 carburetter setup

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phil.dobson@mac.com
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#4 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by phil.dobson@mac.com » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:20 pm

You are too intelligent not to know this BUT. Look at it as a whole system. You need to determine what gearbox, and final drive ratio before deciding the engine will fix it all.
I had a 2.88 in my etype for many years everyone told me it was far to low. When the LSD bit failed/slipped to easily i did change it to a 3.07. I also have a 4.2 all synchro close ratio gearbox. This is with my 3.8 motor now back on triple SU’s. It goes like stink and pulls like the proverbial train.
Only engine mods are gas flowed head (by warren Pearce in 1984) 9:1 pistons.

Its great to play though! And remember ......’you have to pay to play’

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#5 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by Heuer » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:33 pm

Eagle use a 4.7l engine - I wonder why they have gone for that particular capacity?
David Jones
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#6 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by politeperson » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:17 pm

Well, I would quite happily have a go at a 4.7l setup. The question is what are the engine builders buying and from whom. That seems to be the secret.

I am not lacking torque in anyway in my present setup. I think I am up at least 35nm through the range at the moment.

I just want to experiment.
Its true, but Enzo never said it
Too many E types
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#7 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by abowie » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:33 pm

Heuer wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:33 pm
Eagle use a 4.7l engine - I wonder why they have gone for that particular capacity?
I assumed that it's because that's a big as you can go with the block. I too just want to do it as an experiment. And to have a Mk2 that I can smoke the wheels in the first couple of gears. Childish I know but fun.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#8 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by Heuer » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:52 pm

OK, I thought it was because of some optimal ratio or an engineering based decision. I seem to recall others have gone with the 4.7l maybe because adding any less cc is not worthwhile. No personal experience, just questioning.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
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Barry
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#9 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by Barry » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:00 pm

Crosthwaite and Gardner do the 4.7 engines, and they are the top guys. They will even build you an engine with an ally block. Also, a good person to talk to is Rob Beere who I think has all the necessary engine parts to build a 4.7 unit. I have to say the Eagle 4.7 litre cars get a wonderful write up by all the journalists.

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#10 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by MarkRado » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:59 am

Classic Jaguar in Texas do them as well, you can follow their engine-rebuilds in their ongoing blog together with actual rollingroad torque- and power-curves; looks good :wow:
But I think, my father was right, saying: if you want a faster car, buy a faster car
Mark
1963 OTS 880436

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#11 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by abowie » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:58 am

MarkRado wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:59 am
But I think, my father was right, saying: if you want a faster car, buy a faster car
LMAO.

Your old man was wise.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#12 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by politeperson » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:37 am

I already have a faster car!

It is no where near as much fun as the E type though.

I am sure a stroked 4.7l would be more fun than than a 4.5. Its just the cost of the crank. I would guess £5,000+ for this piece alone. A full C+G engine costs more than a house does in some parts of the country. I think the wide angle D type head casting is around £25k?

I would quite happily buy all of it. I just need need to be able to write off a Corporate tax liability by starting a Jaguar racing team first.

I shall keep looking on Ebay, however I think my chances are slim.

Back to my world.

My thoughts were if you were budgeting for new 4.2 pistons and liners anyway, then it is just possible that 4.5 pistons and liners might not break the bank and also might not break the rest of the engine. You could use a standard 4.2 crank, which seems very strong, especially when all it is doing is pushing an E type around.

On the other hand if anyone has a cheap Eagle stroked 4.7 engine floating around I would quite gladly take it off their hands!
Its true, but Enzo never said it
Too many E types
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#13 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by jag68 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:22 am

4.7 l follows from increasing stoke 1/2 an inch (1/4" up and 1/4 down). The crank and rods fit nicely into the block, and there is plenty of bore depth at the bottom to accommodate the extra movement. You have to move the pin up in the piston 1/4 of an inch to accommodate the extra stroke and there is (just) enough height to do so before encroaching into the ring grooves. It's an easy project - but not cheap. The ease with which the engine accelerates the car is amazing. A real magic carpet ride! Some people also do the bore expansion along with the stroked crank for 5.0 l.
1967 E Type coupe
1968 E Type OTS
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#14 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by politeperson » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:18 am

Well thanks for that.

I guess anything is possible with an infinite budget. I just think that the cost of a stroked crank is a bit much for me at the moment. I really like the idea apart from that.

I have now discovered the secret liners, they are available off the shelf and take the engine straight to 4.5l.

So I think that is what I shall be doing.

As far as the rest of the spec goes, I will retain a compression ration of 9:1 for road use and I will use my another XJ6 head big valve head like before, as the combined effect of it last time was a large increase in torque and of course bhp over the small valve head. I find the increased lift at .39 inches of the injection cams useful for road driving. I am not sure if it is worth shelling out for "D" type cams. I might go and see Ken Jenkins, see what his opinion is.

Before the block is built up I intend to send the rotating assembly off for balancing, just to make sure. This costs about £150 and will enable to boast that my engine is "blueprinted"-if nothing else.

Any more of an increase in cc seems to require stroking which requires an expensive crankshaft. The value for money/ extra bhp curve takes a big dip at that point in my opinion!

So, having discovered the liners (top hat ones), I should have an idea on the appropriate pistons in the next few days.

One thing to watch is the price of the liners. It is all over the place by a factor of 300% for exactly the same liner.

It seems to depend who you are as to the price you are offered!

Recently the liner manufacturers (or intermediary) did a special deal to another owners club recently. I shall not name the ancient marque, but it begins with B. The special deal was that you were allowed to pay 3 times the market rate!

When I was round at John the engine builders on Friday, he showed me one of the "B" engines (which happens to be 4.5l six by the way). It was stripped down with the liners removed, waiting for him to press in 6 new liners. They were exactly the same bore size as 4.2 Jaguar liners. Coincidence I suppose. Maybe Mr Heynes/Hassan/Lyons/Weslake et al used what was readily available at the time to create the new 4.2 engine?

I will definitely be purchasing through my engine builder. The suppliers seem keen to offer a "proper engineer" a fair price in the first place.

If anyone is interested in purchasing a set of 4.5l liters with the pistons, I will be more than happy to obtain them for club members and forum members. I am expecting the liners to be in the region of £300 a set and the pistons to be in the region of £400 a set. I am guessing though so bear with me. If I can buy a few sets together I hope to be able to negotiate a discount through John. Please just PM me if you want in. I hope to be able to get firm prices for both in the next few days.


Image
Last edited by politeperson on Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Its true, but Enzo never said it
Too many E types
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#15 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by christopher storey » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:49 pm

AFAIK the 4566cc Bentley engine did not originally have liners . They are regarded by the engine building fraternity as real swines, because the top 2/3 of the bores were chromium plated and are very difficult to bore out

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#16 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by politeperson » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:23 pm

I am seeing John tomorrow Christopher, so I shall see whats is going on in the world of Bentley engines.

My guess is the customer wants it rebuilding with modern top hat liners and modern pistons, I mean, why wouldn't you?

I shall find out.

Anyway it was a Bugatti engine. (joking).
Its true, but Enzo never said it
Too many E types
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#17 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by abowie » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:08 pm

politeperson wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:18 am
They were exactly the same bore size as 4.2 Jaguar liners.
What is the ID and OD of the liner?
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#18 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by politeperson » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:26 pm

Hello Andrew,

The manufacturer will not divulge the dims on line.

My own calculations indicate it will be around 95mm ID (95.08mm gives 4.515l)

As to the OD who knows, as a standard liner is 95.63mm, so that is the mystery. How do they do it?

I have it on good authority they they work, that is all I know until I get into it tomorrow.
Last edited by politeperson on Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Its true, but Enzo never said it
Too many E types
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#19 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by steve3.8 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:13 pm

Hi James ,
Nice project but Is a long stud block suitable for this ?, the short stud block has always been looked upon as stronger .
Steve3.8

64 3.8 fhc, 67 4.2 fhc

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#20 Re: 4.5 Litre rebuild

Post by abowie » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:59 am

politeperson wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:26 pm
Hello Andrew,

The manufacturer will not divulge the dims.

My own calculations indicate it will be around 95mm ID (95.08mm gives 4.515l)

As to the OD who knows, as a standard liner is 95.63mm, so that is the mystery. How do they do it?

I have it on good authority they they work, that is all I know until I get into it tomorrow.
Interesting as I'm having this conversation with my machinist atm. He says I can't go over +40 with top hat liners without running into problems with wall thickness, and that he doesn't think there's enough meat in the block to put in bigger liners. He spends most of his time building drag racing engines, so he's familiar with the territory.

I'm chasing up a few leads on a 250 thou stroker crank. Obviously this will get more CCs but even longer stroke is going to further limit revs (=HP) although there'll be even more torque. At this stage +40 pistons and that crank will get me 4650 ccs. But... your pistons and liners and my crank might make 5l. :bouncyyellow:
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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