E type reaction plate

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keithmac
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#21 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by keithmac » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:41 pm

Ahhh... " The Great Brazinni " Trick. I think I knew that girl too. Never could figure it out. Fun to watch though! ....
Back to topic, I was very leery about reaction plate removal too but as it turned out it ,done systematical -by the WM ,it was not difficult and truly facilitated engine removal in my small garage.
Early 1967 S1 OTS, 1952 MG TD

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abowie
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#22 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by abowie » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:00 pm

To Jerry.
I am reassembling a car in my shed at the moment. I have fitted the TBs and reaction plate with the engine out as it is a lot easier to set them up this way. I have marked them for position so I can quickly remove and replace them later.
I have had a good look at the amount of room in there and I really doubt that it is possible to get the drivetrain in with the reaction plate in, even with an engine leveller. Apart from anything else, if it was possible I expect Jaguar would not have suggested removing the reaction plate to R&R the engine in the manual.
It is possible to leave the TBs in situ, using sections of steel rod, and remove the reaction plate and this too is described in the manual. I wonder if this is what you saw when your engine went in and you didn't notice the reaction plate's absence.

To Tom.
Setting the TBS does not require the weight of the engine or the car. It is done using a setting link of fixed length that puts the lower wishbone at the correct angle to load the TBs when they are on the ground.

To Keiran the OP.
The best way to R&R the engine is from below. This has the benefit of being very controllable and maximising the limited space that it has to fit into. It does mean you have to remove the carbs and the exhaust manifolds but this is not particularly difficult. What you gain is a lot better control of 300kg or so of drivetrain and you are less likely to damage the paint on the engine frames and body. Regardless of how you do it, in my view you will have to remove the reaction plate. If you do not wish to remove the TBs at the same time there is a method described in the manual to do this. Personally I am happy to mark and remove the TBS as refitting them takes a shorter amount of time than pinning them.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
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JerryL770
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#23 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by JerryL770 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:05 am

Andrew and all.

No one should be under the impression that installing the engine/gearbox assembly with the reaction plate in position is easy. It requires a good deal of care, 3 or 4 installers to guide it, a trolley jack (preferably) and the car on axle stands so you can get underneath.

As already said, removing components to make the assembly as short as possible helps (propshaft drive flange removal is unnecessary). Enough headroom and an engine crane which can be controlled well should be used and it is possible gently to manoeuvrer the assembly into place, altering the angle of dangle as you go. The jack is used to lift the rear end as it goes in.

It's a darn close fit, but it goes, with care. You would not have the carbs on.
Jerome Lunt
1970 S2 FHC - Dark Blue, Red Interior, MX5 Seats

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mgcjag
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#24 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by mgcjag » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:26 am

Hi Jerry....are you making any distinction here between 2+2 and non 2+2 or are you sugesting it can be done for all 4.2 models.... Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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JerryL770
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#25 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by JerryL770 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:53 am

Morning Steve,

No, I'm making no distinctions on models but I know it was done on my S2 and I'm pretty sure its been done on S1 4.2's. I can't imagine a 3.8 would be different. 2 + 2 different?? I don't know.

What I do know is that this method is easier than doing big ends with the sump on or points with the dizzy cap in place :roll: :seeingstars:
Jerome Lunt
1970 S2 FHC - Dark Blue, Red Interior, MX5 Seats

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angelw
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#26 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by angelw » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:58 am

Jerome Wrote"
No one should be under the impression that installing the engine/gearbox assembly with the reaction plate in position is easy. It requires a good deal of care, 3 or 4 installers to guide it, a trolley jack (preferably) and the car on axle stands so you can get underneath.
Hello Jerome,
I and members of my staff singly remove engine and gearbox on a routine basis. If I had to charge out the cost of 3-4 people for this job, I'd get no work. It would be a 50/50 split for removing the TB, with a little more care (to avoid injury) when leaving the TBs in place, but I would certainly describe removing the TB as straight forward and not difficult.

I would not have given removing the Engine and Gearbox without removing the reaction plate a thought, given that removing the reaction plate is not difficult and no modification of the transmission tunnel is required when removing the engine and gearbox with the reaction plate removed.

There is not a whole lot of clearance where the Reaction Plate resides between the Bell Housing and the Engine (we're not talking inches). Accordingly, tilting the back of the engine/gearbox down quite steeply is going to reduce the clearance between the Reaction Plate and the Bell Housing - Engine quite dramatically. I just can't see it happening.

Regards,

Bill

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JerryL770
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#27 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by JerryL770 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:00 pm

Quite right Bill.

There's not a lot of room for this but the 3 or 4 people are needed for a few minutes only. I'm saying 5 -10 at the most. I would guess it takes a lot more time to remove the necessary suspension parts. Practice makes perfect.

Of course, if removing the suspension parts is part of a full restoration, then that would be the obvious way to go, but maybe not for just engine/gearbox works.

Also, please note that what I wrote at the beginning may be taken too strongly. No modification of bodywork, anywhere is necessary.

I'm not advocating any particular method, I just pointed out that this is possible.

In the end, you pays your money and takes your choice :salute:
Jerome Lunt
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christopher storey
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#28 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by christopher storey » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:33 pm

I am beginning to lose patience with this drivel , and I have lost the urge to be polite . It is quite impossible to remove the engine and gearbox on a 6 cylinder E type without removing the reaction plate. The plate lies with its upper edge about 10 to 15 mm below the upgoing curve of the sump, and with about at most 25mm clearance to its rear before one meets the front face of the bellhousing , the bottom edge of which is perhaps 10 to 15mm above the bottom of the plate. To enable the bellhousing and gearbox to " hop over " the reaction plate would require the engine et al to be raised by at least 30mm , ( and it is very doubtful that there is sufficient clearance between top of bell and bulkhead to do that ) but it would be a further requirement that the whole apparatus be moved forward by at least 200mm, and there is nothing like sufficient space at the front to do this because of the picture frame . The only solution might, as Jerry has suggested, be to tilt the apparatus upwards, which is indeed the normal way it is done once the reaction plate has been removed. However, the angle required is of the order of 30 degrees initially , and there is wholly insufficient space to do this with the reaction plate in place - the front edge of the bellhousing will meet the reaction plate long before this angle is achieved ( and indeed to achieve it requires the whole apparatus to be moved forward so that the rear of the cylinder head does not hit the bulkhead face ) , and this is impossible to achieve with the reaction plate in place

The reason that I am so concerned with this matter is that if people try and act on Jerry's advice, I can see a distinct possibility of severe injury - either crush injury or severance of fingers - arising , not ignoring also the possibility of severe damage to the car

I shall try and post pictures to illustrate, but the link does not at present seem to work
Image

Image

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JerryL770
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#29 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by JerryL770 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:15 pm

OK Christopher. You are entitled to your opinion and I will say no more.
Jerome Lunt
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PeterCrespin
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#30 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by PeterCrespin » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:00 pm

JerryL770 wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:47 pm
I come here for the expertise which is evident, not to be insulted.... I respect Peters' and your experience but tell you categorically this engine/box removal/replacement method is perfectly feasible...
OK Jerry, fair comment, albeit I was directing my exasperation at the risk/benefit and the concept, not the person. As you are being categorical and claiming eye-witness certainty, I have to take you seriously.

One thing is certain - removing the reaction plate is trivial in time/effort/equipment, although it needs care. It requires maybe five minutes per side once you've selected your tools. You can tap out the 4 bolts and use them as pins or you can file old ones to these bullet-type shapes as mentioned in the manual. The frame rail fasteners are obvious and easy.

Image

So doing it single-handed, per the manual, is easy and quick and leaves the suspension alone for engine extraction from above or below (again single-handed) with a simple engine crane. Under any circumstances, this is a tough method to improve on. If I had to ask anyone for help I would be unable to do mechanical work. I think it's always interesting to hear alternative methods that usually have some pros and cons but your solution seems harder and riskier to bodywork paint than the established methods.

Please see if your acquaintances can write up or photograph the procedure for the benefit of the forum you enjoy. Thinking about it, I could just about visualise it if the gearbox top cover and pump/pulleys/damper were not fitted. Presumably the head was fitted?
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 79 S2 XJ12L; 97 XJ6L

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JerryL770
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#31 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by JerryL770 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:21 pm

Thanks Christopher - ..... sorry, Peter,

I am in the process of checking that my memory is not doing me in. If, if, I've mislead, I will admit to my error.

EDIT. I can confirm my memory serves me well.

As I am not engaged with the company any more it will be difficult to get any pictures and that then may not be approved anyway.

It's not a job one should tackle alone.

Yes, head on and gearbox complete - except for lever I believe. Water pump pulley off and crank pulley off certainly helps but I can't remember if that last is entirely necessary or a good idea even, due to difficulty to tighten the bolt.
Last edited by JerryL770 on Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jerome Lunt
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Tom W
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#32 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by Tom W » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:10 pm

abowie wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:00 pm

To Tom.
Setting the TBS does not require the weight of the engine or the car. It is done using a setting link of fixed length that puts the lower wishbone at the correct angle to load the TBs when they are on the ground.
Quite right. Possibly I didn’t make my point very well though. Whilst the torsion bars are set with the wishbones positioned by the setting links, the weight of the car is required to preload correctly set torsion bars to the point that the upper ball joint and front damper can be re-connected. I’ve not tried this, but I’d be surprised if there’s enough weight in the front of the car without the engine.

For clarity, my original post should have read....

“When it comes to reassembling the suspension after the engine is out, you won’t be able to preload torsion bars set using the setting links without the weight of the engine.”
Tom
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abowie
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#33 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by abowie » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:46 pm

You are quite right in that the steering ball joints can't be connected without putting strain on them but the other two will go in fine.
Andrew.
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E600
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#34 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by E600 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:24 pm

I have come late to this, but can confirm I have assisted a couple of times in removal and refitting of a SWB E type engine/box with the reaction plate fitted and TB connected.

The rear of the car is jacked up and the engin/box lifted at more of an angle than normal.

It was necessary to bend the flanges on the front bulkhead.

It is not tosh, so Please no insults as I have done this and next time (not on my car) I will take pictures and post them, although my word should be good enough.

Regards
Pat

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angelw
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#35 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by angelw » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:05 am

Pat Wrote:
The rear of the car is jacked up and the engin/box lifted at more of an angle than normal.

It was necessary to bend the flanges on the front bulkhead.

It is not tosh, so Please no insults as I have done this and next time (not on my car) I will take pictures and post them, although my word should be good enough.
Hello Pat,
With all due respect, but it is tosh when one has to mutilate the vehicle in some way (bend the flanges on the front bulkhead) to achieve a goal, given that removing the Reaction Plate, either with, or without removing the Torsion Bars is not difficult, nor all that time consuming.

Regards,

Bill

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christopher storey
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#36 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by christopher storey » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:05 am

I fear that Pat's memory is leading him astray. He is quite correct that there is no need to remove the torsion bars ( and indeed if the workshop manual is followed there is no need even to reset them ) , but it is utterly impossible to tilt the engine /gearbox up at the front and down at the rear ( and then move it forwards to lift it further ) and remove it ,with the reaction plate in place. The only way it could be done is if the picture frame had been removed . Just look at the photographs I have posted above

I must also say that bending the flanges ( whatever they are ) of the front bulkhead can only have one end result : the entire geometry of the front of the car will be irretrievably wrecked, since the base line of the bulkhead is precisely the point where all three diaphragms meet internally

I do wonder whether those who are so adamant that they have seen this done have been dealing with cars with a bodged up reaction plate. I can see that if the plate had had its top edge sufficiently ground away , there might then be just sufficient clearance for the bottom of the bell housing to "hop over" the plate . Given that this procedure is unquestionably a bodge of the first order , it is quite likely that other bodges have been resorted to

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tim wood
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#37 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by tim wood » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:49 pm

On my first e type , many years ago, I distinctly remember that the reaction plate had been abused much in the way Christopher describes. The top half of the section which runs between the sump and the bell housing had been ground away.
Until now I had no idea why this had been done
Series 1 FHC purchased 40 years ago when I was young. Sold
Series 1 2+2 when the kids were small now sold
Series 1.5 OTS in opalescent maroon, Californian car. My retirement present.

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ysmalkie
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#38 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by ysmalkie » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:17 pm

Like this?
Image

This is how my reaction plate looked like.

Tadek
Tadek

e-type S1 3.8 FHC - in restoration phase...
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E600
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#39 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by E600 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:41 pm

I am not one who normally takes an entrenched position, but on this occasion I stand firm. I have assisted someone who has removed the engine and gearbox without removing the reaction plate. The reaction plate is not modified. The damage caused to the flanges on the bulkhead do not alter the suspension or steering geometry.

It is not a practise I perform on my cars, I prefer lowering through the frames, however, if someone asks me to assist them and they are adamant on their chosen method I will gladly help, as I have done on 2 occasions.

I have no axe to grind here, I am not selling anything, believe me it is possible.

Chris, I believe you are not 100 miles from me, I think my friend has a clutch to do and will be removing engine and box as described above, you are more than welcome to join us and watch the impossible.

Regards
Pat

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Mark Gordon
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#40 Re: E type reaction plate

Post by Mark Gordon » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:58 pm

Pat, this is an excellent opportunity to settle the issue. Please take photos and document the process and then report back so that we can see how it's done.
Mark

67 OTS 1E14988, 2015 Camry XSE

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