S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Technical advice Q&A

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mdrobbo
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#1 S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by mdrobbo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:00 pm

I have a Hardtop for my 1961 S1 OTS .

Whilst I have all the Chrome trim for it I do not have any of the fixing clips / screws and non of the parts stockists seem to list them in there parts ?

Across the leading edge, of the hardtop, there are 13 ( roughly 3mm ) holes , but I need to know what are the appropriate trim clips ( are these screwed in place or pop rivetted ? )

Also what are the correct screws ( size , thread , c/sunk? , domed ? slot or pozi ) which hold the Cant rail chrome and corner 'flash' chrome in place

Thanks Martin

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Heuer
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#2 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by Heuer » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:15 pm

Classic Quality Parts specialise in hardtop chrome, fixings and fibreglass: https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/JaguarMan198 ... 7675.l2563

Are these the parts you are looking for?

Image
£175/set: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JAGUAR-E-Typ ... 0005.m1851
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

Add your E-Type to our World Map: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810

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mdrobbo
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#3 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by mdrobbo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:23 pm

Hi David , thanks for the reply , but those are not the parts I need .
Its the little trim clips that hold the chrome strip across the leading edge of the hardtop
and the screws which hold the other bits of chrome trim on

Martin

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ralphr1780
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#4 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by ralphr1780 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:11 pm

Martin, this is the part you need:
https://www.sngbarratt.com/uk/#!/Englis ... fa60739197
Those are held with small screws and the chrome is pressed over.
Hope to have been of help.
Ralph
'69 OTS + '62 OTS - Belgium

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tonyabacus
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#5 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by tonyabacus » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:48 pm

Hi Martin
I am doing the same job on a factory hardtop so have looked into this problem too. To begin with the holes across the front are for the rivets that have a small clip onto which the chrome strip is attached. Similarly the chrome trims to each side by the cant rails also have a couple of rivets and clips (at the sides) in addition to the two screws that are under the rubber pads to the bottom of the cant rails. One of the main problems is that all these metal components corrode and rust under the chrome trims and front strip. Also where the rivets go through the hardtop they can stress crack the fibreglass and spread under the paint until they finally show through.

The solution now used by a number of the quality restorers is to use a poly adhesive applied with an applicator similar to that used when filling cracks around the house (so a bit like using No Nails). The adhesive is applied to the rear of the chrome strip or part but not too much, the trim is then applied to the hardtop (or soft top) and held in place with either screen clamps or strong tape overnight until set. Make sure you remove any excess from the top as soon as possible so as not to leave an unsightly mess and its easier whilst still wet and unset. This way you end up with a neat finish that will not corrode away out of sight.

Also worth checking is the seal that goes along the bottom rear of the hardtop, the profile given by most of the suppliers seems different to that fitted to my hardtop, which I know to be an original genuine factory hardtop, untouched since new. The profile being supplied today fits over both front and rear of the panel( bit like a windscreen rubber), with a sealing flap that sits against the body. My hardtop seal sits in a groove between the two skins of the panel and just projects downwards to sits against the body, which looks much cleaner than a seal that fits over the panel.

I am trying to find out whether the factory modified this seal at some point but not having much success to date. If anyone can help please post. Will try and get a picture to better explain so look for another posting.

As for the screws to use if you don't wish to use an adhesive, they are listed on the SNG site but are a little buried away but try this,

1. Go to SNG Barratt
2. Go to E Type S2 DHC
3. On left click Body Fittings
4. On left click Hood and Hardtop Assembly
5. This brings up a series of ten pages that details all parts for both hard and soft tops
6. Scroll through to approx. page 8/9
7. Starts to list the screws, washers and bolts I think you are looking for
8.Click on the individual part and it will open up to give size and dimensions of part and also which vehicle it applies to.

That I hope will provide some answers you requested, let us know how you get on.
Tony

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tonyabacus
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#6 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by tonyabacus » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:10 pm

Hi Martin
I posted a reply which somehow has got shunted down the page, but it should answer all your questions
Tony

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mdrobbo
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#7 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by mdrobbo » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:18 am

Hi Tony
Really appreciate you taking the time to reply , and a very comprehensive answer to ..thank you
Im open to try the original methods first, clips & screws ( someone suggested 'tuckers' pop rivets ?) before I go to the 21st century solution , which i have seen on several cars and seems to work well .

Interesting point regarding the rear rubber seal ... need to look into that .
The ones i have seen all had the seal thats currently available ( but i never thought this was an elegant solution ) i like what you are suggesting far more , may pick your brains further.

Regards Martin

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tonyabacus
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#8 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by tonyabacus » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:31 pm

Hi Martin

Glad to help, I have taken some photographs and need to draw a sketch of the seal I have fitted so I can send them to Baines. Spoke with them earlier this week and they will look through to see whether they have anything similar, if not I may talk to them about producing a seal, so will keep posting here as a get responses.

I will also post some images over the weekend of what my hardtop looks like around this area for comparison purposes.

As for the rivets I will take another look and respond, but the issue may be getting in behind the headlining if you use Tuckers.

Tony

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tonyabacus
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#9 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by tonyabacus » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:47 pm

Hi Martin

As update to our last note. Measuring the clips and rivets was not easy as they are heavily corroded but eventually I managed to remove the clips and screws to get them under a magnifying glass to check shapes and sized, the rivets proved more difficult to measure as they were all slightly distorted from having the trim taken on and off over the years, but eventually again a nominal value was arrived at. You will see in the pictures that there is also a rubber pad to each corner of the hardtop below the side chrome finishers, this is a fairly hard rubber/foam? and again I am trying to get a couple of firms to identify it.

1. The clip measured 10 x 7mm with a 3mm diameter mounting hole in the centre
2. Retainer screw is a countersunk No.4 x 5/16" (they appear to be woodscrews rather than self tappers)
3. The Rivet is 7.2mm approx. (9/32 - 5/16") length not determined until one is removed.
4. The screws to the underside edge of the chrome finisher on the side are domed chrome No.6 x 1/2" (5/32 x 1/2")
5. Corner rubbers 50 x 50 x15mm

I have done a little more research on the hardtop chrome strip fittings and can point you to a very comprehensive catalogue of all sorts of trim clips and fittings, not just Jaguar but for many British cars. There are perhaps too many pages to print but download the catalogue to the following,

The site is www.bresco.com,
pages 29, 30,38 and 39
item number 17750P for the moulding clip
item number BSF079P for the Tucker rivet long version
item number BSF223P for a shorter version

I have finally managed to draw a section of the sealing rubber around the base to the rear of the hardtop and will send it to a couple of people for them to either research and find an existing section or to quote to have some made. The section on my hardtop is different to most that are being advertised on the net and I know is the original. The best way I can describe the section is like an upside down tooth with a long root from the centre that fits up inside the two skins of the hardtop.

If the pictures turn out you will see that I have a screwdriver pushed into the aperture to show where the headlining material is glued and folder into and ultimately where the tongue of the seal is also glued into. Once in place the seal has a small lip of approximately 12mm covering the inner edge inside the hardtop, on the outer edge you may see in the photographs a brown glue line to the edge, that is where the seal virtually abuts the outer edge rather than having a lip up the outside (I hope that is clear). So when viewed in place the hardtop now has a nice flush appearance with the seal hardly showing, rather than looking like that of a windscreen rubber as most of the options currently available. It may be of course that Jaguar subsequently went over to the windscreen type seal for ease of production line assembly, but I have not found anyone to verify this.

Will keep you informed, I have attached some pictures and hope they come through.
Tony



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Geoff Green
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#10 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by Geoff Green » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:13 pm

My factory hardtop has the rectangular clips holding the corner trim at the side window, body, door handle area. Somewhat triangle shaped.

The chrome across the top front above the windshield is held on with round clips similar to the round clips holding the headlight trim on a series 2 / 3.
Image

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Last edited by Geoff Green on Fri May 17, 2019 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tonyabacus
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#11 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by tonyabacus » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:04 am

Geoff
Not sure if we are talking the same parts, but here is another photograph of the clip in the area you describe as fitted to my hardtop. Looking at the chrome fitting I don't think there can be too many alternatives to the one in my pictures.
Image

Tony

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mdrobbo
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#12 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by mdrobbo » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:02 pm

Hi Tony ,
Thanks again for another very complete answer to my original query.
I have checked out the Bresco site, seems quite a selection .

Your ( wood) screws that hold the clips across the front edge seem a trifle long ? don't they foul the rubber sealing strip , or was the rubber seal strip fitted before the trim clips so that the screws actually screw in to the rubber
The rear seal photos were fine and I have to say what you have does look a much more elegant solution than the current offerings, which look cumbersome . I would certainly love to hear if you find a supplier .

Thanks Martin

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#13 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by tonyabacus » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:12 pm

Hi Martin

When you say across the front edge I take it you mean the horizontal edge that abuts the bottom of the cant rails?

The clips I refer to are those rectangular ones that hold the trim to the sides of the hardtop shaped like a letter 'L'. Having rechecked the size they are definitely 5/16ths. The two holes they fit into are 1/2" up from the horizontal edge of the fibreglass and as you suggest it seems perhaps the rubber was inserted before the chrome trim, the rubber is approximately 13/16ths total depth and the 'tongue' approximately 5/8ths depth.

I have not as yet completely removed the rubber seal so cannot confirm the above, but I think we share the same idea.

Once I get a response from the firms I have sent a drawing to about the seal I will post some detail.

Have you loosened the seal on your hardtop to see if it to shares a dual skin where the 'tongue' on the seal fitted on my car fits into, this at least would confirm that the hardtops are the same. I can't see Jaguar changing this method unless or until the moulds wore out, but even then it would have been easier just to replicate what they had.

One problem often reported is that the hardtop obviously moves slightly when going over different road surfaces, this leads to some rubbing of the paint. But it appears to me that the seal supplied these days from the different sources I have seen, appears to be quite a hard rubber which may account for the rubbing, whereas the rubber I have seems softer and so might sucker down onto the paint better meaning perhaps the top is held in place better and hence less rubbing as the top moves. Hope to get further advice on the grade of rubber when the firms get back to me.

Regards
Tony

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#14 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by tonyabacus » Sun May 12, 2019 10:09 am

Hi Martin
A brief update on the hardtop rubbers.
I had a meeting with one of the large older manufacturers of rubber items and seals to the classics market. Looking at their current seal for the bottom edge of the hardtop their are some differences between my original and their current option. Their option has the “tail” to the bottom, mine does not. Theirs comes to a point at where the seal meets the body, mine has a more squared edge along the bottom, perhaps this is one reason why the rubber chafes into the paint over time. Also the hardness of the rubber is more now than is on mine and as the guy commented you would expect the rubber in fact to have hardened, leading to the thoughts that the original rubber may indeed have been softer.

The rubbers currently supplied by a number of firms may not only be using the same profile but also the same grade of material. I am trying to find out who most of these suppliers use as a manufacturer to see if most come from the same initial source..

I am now waiting for the manufacturer to do some investigation at their end and how we might get a better option made available. My contact did say that despite his long service in the business, no one has to his knowledge ever queried the fit, style or material before and much welcomed the feedback especially if it helps us guys restoring cars

Will keep you posted as and when I get news
Tony

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mdrobbo
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#15 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by mdrobbo » Mon May 13, 2019 8:31 am

Hi Tony , thanks for the update , looks like you are treading new ground .
I wonder if any other members have a similar rear rubber seal to their Hardtop as you ?
I suspect it is a piece that gets damaged over time and replaced ..but maybe someone has an original top with little use and can look to see if their rubber matches yours .
Maybe yours is a replacement by a prior owner who came up with a better fitting part than what was originally fitted ?
Anyway as your investigations continue , i will wait for further installments
Cheers Martin

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#16 Re: S1 Hardtop Chrome fixing clips

Post by tonyabacus » Wed May 15, 2019 10:10 am

Hi Martin

I checked with the previous owner who had the hardtop for most of its life, he worked for a large Jaguar dealer in London as an apprentice and for most of his career. He also had 14 e types over the years as well as a number of hardtops. He was pretty emphatic that my top was completely original and untouched, so I have at this time no reason to doubt that the seal is the original. In addition the seal has all the signs of being a factory fit, by the way it is set into the aperture, no over gluing and even has the rubbers that sit on the “B” post still intact.

As these Hardtop tend to get stored and moved around, I guess most by now have been renovated and most likely the deteriorated rubbers replaced, but if anyone reading this still has or knows of another unrestored hardtop, it would be good to get some comparisons.

One factor I did discuss with the chap from the supplier was the composition of the rubber that is used during manufacture of various rubbers. He explained that depending on the source materials used there can be variations in the hardness of the finished product as supplied by different manufacturers. As there are a number of Jaguar suppliers out there, it may be that there are also a variation in the hardness of many of the different rubbers on offer. I know one classic example that is discussed among owners is the “B” post door seal which depending on their source can be difficult to fit whereas others are easier.

However I will wait now an see what my contact comes back with, but if anyone knows whether this hardtop seal was modified by Jaguar during its manufactured life, we would appreciate their input.

Tony

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