Need advice on new engine sump.

Technical advice Q&A

Topic author
paulsco
Posts: 825
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 5:12 pm
Location: Oxfordshire
Great Britain

#1 Need advice on new engine sump.

Post by paulsco » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:54 pm

Hi,

My engine has been running fine, but the original sump which had been quite badly damaged and welded up, was weeping a little oil through the side of the sump when the engine was running.

I cannot pinpoint this leak, so last year at Jaguar Spares Day I bought a new one. It is not clear who made it, but it was a lot better than one I had bought from one of the usuals previously and had returned because it wouldn’t fit properly.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I am in the process of fitting the new sump, but have come across a few problems which I would like your opinions on.

When trying the baffle panel for fit, it didn’t. I did some measurements and I have found that the old sump is 5mm deeper than the new one, although the baffle panel bolt posts are at the same distance down from the top flange as the original.

The options I have are:

Cut 5mm off the bottom of the boxes in the baffle panel and shorten the pick up pipe by the same as currently it is about 1/16” from the bottom of the sump.

Or try to get hold of another original sump.

I think it would be very difficult to pressurise my existing sump to find the leak and this will be my third time removing it and I don’t want to have to do it again if it fails.

I could buy another new one, but who knows, that might end up having the same problem as this one.

Has anybody else fitted a new sump and had problems?

Thanks,

Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


dal2.0litrefrogeye
Posts: 1073
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:48 pm
Location: sarf london
Contact:
Great Britain

#2 Re: Need advice on new engine sump.

Post by dal2.0litrefrogeye » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:27 am

To pin point leak I would , clean old sump out ( yes you probably already have )
And fill with ( in a well ventilated place away from sparks bla bla bla ) either paraffin or petrol these will find leaks very easily , and then with crayon Mark said area ,
Where in the world are you as I have the tools and ability to weld ali and would be happy to weld it as forum / club gesture
...... just noticed your in Oxford, maybe a little to far ?????
Last edited by dal2.0litrefrogeye on Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Its a way of life not a hobby
Darren . 64 4.2 modded 69 4.2

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

abowie
Posts: 3879
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:15 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:
Australia

#3 Re: Need advice on new engine sump.

Post by abowie » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:14 pm

paulsco wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:54 pm
but it was a lot better than one I had bought from one of the usuals previously and had returned because it wouldn’t fit properly.
Are they still doing this? I bought a "new" sump for a 3.8 a few years ago from a "usual" and got sent a used sump from a military crate engine from an armoured car. I could tell what it was because there were still little bits of the unusual blue paint colour adherent to it. Got a full refund but no apology. I still have it.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

abowie
Posts: 3879
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:15 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:
Australia

#4 Re: Need advice on new engine sump.

Post by abowie » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:21 pm

Despite your experience, it is possible to leak test and repair a sump.

My machinist in Australia does this well. I'm sure there will be a specialist welding company near you who has the knowledge and equipment to do this for you.

I would recommend you get them to have another go. What I am told is can happen is that there is some porosity in the welded area and a liquid can get through over time. You apparently need to deeply vee grind around the cracks and TIG in a lot of filler rod.

I am not sure what is going on with your current replacement sump but it sounds odd. In my experience E Type sumps are reliably interchangeable.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
paulsco
Posts: 825
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 5:12 pm
Location: Oxfordshire
Great Britain

#5 Re: Need advice on new engine sump.

Post by paulsco » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:36 pm

Hi Darren,

Thanks for your generous offer; the welding is not really the problem, it is finding the leak.
I made the mistake of removing the sump before pinpointing it, as I was going to replace it.

Andrew,

Thanks for your comments. Twice bitten now; the first one would have required the use of Allen bolts instead of the studs at the front as there wasn’t enough clearance. The baffle panel didn’t fit that well in that one ether, but I never got around to taking detailed measurements.
The current one was new, off a stall at Jaguar Spares Day and was ok in the stud area, although it did need some grinding relief around the area of the back bolts to allow a socket on it.
I was hot and cold on whether to use it, but trimmed the baffle panel and took a little off the pick up pipe and fitted it. It seems to work ok.

I do however have every intention of repairing the original and fitting it at a later date.
What always amazes me is that a lot of effort must go into making these sumps; just how hard is it to get right??

Regards,

Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

abowie
Posts: 3879
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:15 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:
Australia

#6 Re: Need advice on new engine sump.

Post by abowie » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:19 pm

My machinist uses a dye solution to find leaks. Fills the sump with it, looks to see where it comes out and then grinds that area out and fills it with TIG.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

abowie
Posts: 3879
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:15 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:
Australia

#7 Re: Need advice on new engine sump.

Post by abowie » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:21 pm

paulsco wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:36 pm

What always amazes me is that a lot of effort must go into making these sumps; just how hard is it to get right??
I agree. The new ones would be individual sand castings. I suppose that they may have made the error in the machining of the top surface. How much did your new sump cost?
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

44DHR
Posts: 547
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:32 pm
Location: Fishbourne Isle of Wight
Great Britain

#8 Re: Need advice on new engine sump.

Post by 44DHR » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:48 am

Just picking up on Andrew’s comment that most E Type sumps are reliably interchangeable, I certainly would not doubt Andrew’s expertise, but we did cover the differences in the rear sealing areas of the earlier 3.8 and the later 4.2 sumps in previous postings :-

http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php? ... 139#p80139

This post also leads to other information on replacement Sumps and their issues and hopefully it will be of use to people seeking a replacement sump to ensure they get the right period sump to suit their particular engine, so that they are directly compatible in the rear sealing area.

Paul, is it possible you have purchased a 3.8 sump rather than a 4.2 sump which is giving rise to issues around the oil pump pipes from the different pumps ?

Regards,
Dave
Dave Rose
1967 Series 1 4.2 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

abowie
Posts: 3879
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:15 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:
Australia

#9 Re: Need advice on new engine sump.

Post by abowie » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:46 pm

Expertise, LOL.

As long as you have the correct rear seal housing they fit. I put a 4.2 sump on my recent 3.8 rebuild because it looked better that the finned 3.8 sump I had.

I did change one of the oil pickup pipes but that was only to fit the bore in the oil pump.

The engine originally came with a pressed steel sump off, I think, an XK140.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
paulsco
Posts: 825
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 5:12 pm
Location: Oxfordshire
Great Britain

#10 Re: Need advice on new engine sump.

Post by paulsco » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:39 pm

Hi Andrew,

Dye is a good idea I hadn't thought of that. Do you know what dye was used?

The sump cost £550. As I bought it off a trader I imagine now that it had possibly failed the quality check, by the manufacturer.
I asked who made it, but they said they didn't know??
When I studied it in detail, there were a few inconsistencies; the depth as previously mentioned, the baffle posts were not consistent and required a couple of holes in the baffle panel to be elongated by a few mil.
And the return pipe mounting point on the outside was about 10mm further forward.

With hindsight I shouldn't have used it, but it only required a little alteration to the baffle panel.
I couldn't afford to throw away £550 and I couldn't sell it on without stating the problems.

Dave,

Thanks for all the information. It is the correct style of sump for my 4.2, I will try to post some pictures later.
It is interesting what you say about the cork seal. I like the cork seal and avoided the flimsy black one, perhaps a mistake now :-(

Regards,

Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic