Which Clutch? Series 1 3.8 Fast Road with 4.2 Box.

[randompunter74]

Hi all, Wonder if you can help. I have a Series 1 3.8 (1962). The engine is 3.8 and is running about 295-300 BHP. (High Comp Pistons, Polished, Side Draft Webers etc) mated with the 4.2 Fully Synchro Clutch.

Put simply, the chap I bought the engine and gearbox from (Tester Engineering) fitted a race clutch to the car, which is a nightmare for the road - See pics attached). I have now taken this out and the car is at JLR in Dubai waiting for the new clutch. I was going to order the 10 inch diaphram clutch from SNG Barratt but I wanted to check in to ask what others run for fast road?

To be clear, the sole reason for changing the clutch is that I want the feel to be like a normal road clutch, namely easy in traffic, nice travel. I only use on track for fun once or twice a year. I want it for road driving and to be comfortable.

Any recommendations asap would be greatly appreciated as its on the ramp waiting! Thanks

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[randompunter74]

Engine.

[politeperson]

I would put a standard 9.5 inch clutch with fingers in. I find they have a lighter action.

What flywheel do you have?

4.2 or 3.8?

The 4.2s are usually drilled for the 9.5 dowels and 10 inch clutch dowel patterns.
Makes sure you have the correct thrust bearing clearance prior to refitting.

[steve3.8]

Is it a standard Jaguar flywheel or lightweight ? to suit a 7¼" [Sintered ?] paddle clutch .
I cannot imagine a twin plate clutch being fitted to a standard flywheel , Its difficult to tell from the photo.
He may need a flywheel also ! .

[randompunter74]

Thanks lads.
The car is a Jaguar Land Rover here in Dubai, so put simply, whilst they do work on Jags they aren't the best. I bought the whole lot (Engine/Gearbox/Clutch) etc from Tester Engineering in the UK and well...I didnt exactly get much info. I have just emailed him again to find out about the flywheel, thanks for the heads up. (I will also get some more pics of it today and share)

I may well just order a complete clutch, flywheel and basically everything.I don't want to ship it all the way over and find out its wrong you know.

Which clutch & flywheel set up would you recommend. On a few forums some recommend AP Racing Standard 9.5 Inch set up. Where do you order from?
I usually order parts fron SNG, but they only have a standard 10 inch diaphram you see. Not sure that it would be able to take even road abuse with 300 BHP? I could easily be wrong.

Thanks

[mgcjag]

You could contact http://www.rob-beere-racing.co.uk/newproducts.html tbey are really helpefull if you chat to them....thats assuming they are still working during the current crisis.....their products are really worth looking at...Steve

[steve3.8]

I think before you order anything you need to establish what you have .
With the engine coming from a race background it could be a mishmash of parts ,ie is it a 3.8 bellhousing ? . The bellhousing , flywheel and starter motor need to all match to 3.8 or 4.2 with no mixing . Some clear pictures of your gearbox ,bellhousing , flywheel and starter will help to confirm. ?

[randompunter74]

You could contact http://www.rob-beere-racing.co.uk/newproducts.html tbey are really helpefull if you chat to them....thats assuming they are still working during the current crisis.....their products are really worth looking at...Steve

Yeah I tried calling them yesterday, no answer.

[randompunter74]

I think before you order anything you need to establish what you have .
With the engine coming from a race background it could be a mishmash of parts ,ie is it a 3.8 bellhousing ? . The bellhousing , flywheel and starter motor need to all match to 3.8 or 4.2 with no mixing . Some clear pictures of your gearbox ,bellhousing , flywheel and starter will help to confirm. ?

Agreed. Its all fine and dandy but I sort of fell out with Tester Engineering when they didn't respond to any mails and sent a mish mash of parts. Took me months to get responses from them sometimes, I wanted to expect more from an enthusiast firm. I have been driving the car for 2 years but the clutch is just doing my head in so changing it out. I am not in the UK so very difficult to identify parts as the experience here isn't like in the UK> I just asked JLR here to send more pics but they have put bits back together as they needed it off the ramp. All I know is that is a 3/8 engine with a 4.2 gearbox and race clutch.

[mgcjag]

I would send out a standard 9.5 in clutch kit and get that fitted.....Steve

[1954Etype]

My ramblings...

Before committing the car to JLR out there (I assume they are a main dealer?) you might be better off trying to find a good garage that works on classic cars as they will (or should have) a better understanding of your issue.

There is an issue with carbon release bearings at the moment and we have fitted the Denis Welch roller bearing replacement. I have this in my car and it feels ok but haven't put any miles on it yet to confirm.

If you change the flywheel, you could have a balance issue on the engine (you might by changing the clutch) so be prepared for any vibrations that weren't there before!

If a standard clutch housing fits and the surface of the flywheel is good, I wouldn't change it.

If you do have to change the flywheel, you need to establish which one it is as the starter motor gearing is different where it meshes with the ring gear between a 3.8 and 4.2.

[randompunter74]

Noted. There are loads of decent garages here, but not one which specialises in E Types in Dubai. I have been here for 15 years and have had a few classics and its always tricky. If only we had the experience over here from the likes of Rob Beere. We dont sadly, so we need to use what we can. I usually take it to specialists but for the Jag I am trying Jaguar Land Rover here for a change and as in an ideal world would be good for history to have JLR on the receipts you know. But...they dont know. They deal with about 8 e types in the UAE max, maybe less, so they dont see a load you know.

[tim wood]

I think Tester Engineering have gone into liquidation

[randompunter74]

Why doesn't that surprise me.

[rfs1957]

My ramblings...

There is an issue with carbon release bearings at the moment and we have fitted the Denis Welch roller bearing replacement. I have this in my car and it feels ok but haven't put any miles on it yet to confirm.

What's the craïc with that Angus ?

I had the std carbon one from SNGB circa September 2018, not fitted it yet ...........

[1954Etype]

Talking to various people, there was a batch of clutches that had an issue with the pressure plate where it attaches to the clutch cover (where the release bearing pushes against). This pressure plate (or contact pad) is held in place via the 'fingers' on the clutch housing. What has happened on a few clutches is that this has let go and basically destroyed the clutch.

If you hear a rattle from the bellhousing on tickover that wasn't there, it could be the contact pad becoming loose. Only way is to change it.

By using the Denis Welch roller, you remove the problem as you take the contact pad off.

[PeterCrespin]

What's the craïc with that Angus ?

I had the std carbon one from SNGB circa September 2018, not fitted it yet ...........

I bought one with the competition 9.5 inch clutch for the 4.8L stroker. It's a bit expensive and it's a compromise because it slides across as it presses in. That motion is fine with the carbon and the sliding doesn't matter, because it's merely the a sliding action between the same working surfaces just moving laterally at the same time as they rub rotationally. You'd have to take the thrust plate off your existing diaphragm clutch.

The thrust ball bearing (suspect it's not a roller) rubs direct on the diaphragm fingers and is fine when fully depressed because the purpose-made rubbing surfaces inside take the thrust and there is no movement between the bearing outer shell and the spring. The theoretical issue is that there has to be raw rubbing of the bearing casing across the rough spring fingers as the fork describes an arc.

There is an adjustable screw stop on the bearing carrier which you use to ensure the thrust bearing presents more or less true and square to the fingers at first contact and therefore the sideways movement is 'kinda' minimized. That's the compromise bit....

[tinworm]

The trouble with incorporating race technology in a road car while trying to improve something that does not need improving is you can add problems not reduce them. Road cars are far removed from race cars for good reason - comfort ,ease of use, durability of components etc being some of the reasons. Peter mentions the effect of the ball bearing type of release bearing on the clutch cover indicating wear would result. In a race situation this is not a problem as no slipping of clutches is necessary (no town driving !) also you want immediate take up - so the clutch is designed to be in or out.
The 9.5" AP diaphragm clutch is not only used on the E-type but various Ferrari models too including cars with much more power - so it was never 'just about good enough' to do the job. The standard driven plate has radial shock absorbing springs to cushion the take up - serious abuse of this feature by continual harsh treatment can cause a clutch plate to break up and necessitate replacement although it does take a lot to cause this . I used up a 9.5" AP clutch on a 308 Ferrari and it took several years of hillclimbs and sprints to do it and I only changed it because I thought it lacked bite and wanted to regain its crisp action. The multiplate ceramic racing clutches have a very different design and your comfort is not a feature they need to address.
I do not have the torque figures to hand to tell if the 10" clutch is any better than the 9.5" ,and criteria for selection should include the weight of clutch when deciding . Spring clutches are heavier than diaphagm clutches and a sporting driver would favour a lightened flywheel and clutch. This will not detract significantly from enjoyment on Sunday trips to the pub .
So overall I think the 9.5" (and probably this new 10" diaphagm though I have no experience of it personally) has a lot to be said for it . To get the most out of your carbon release you just need to remember to knock the car out of gear at junctions and not ride it! That is how old cars were driven by the way.

Thats enough from me!

Barrie

[politeperson]

Yes, I would definitely keep it stock.

I find the 9.5 inch finger clutch has a lighter pedal action than the 10 inch coil spring unit. they come with there own pressure plates and require different dowel patterns, so you need to know which flywheel/bell housing setup you have

The main issue at the moment just seems to be the release bearing height. Needs checking prior to fitting to ensure the clutch arm does not hit the bell housing before the clutch disengages. As Steve has pointed out, there are 2 different versions, a high on and a low one depending on your setup.

If you get it wrong, you will end up having to take it all out again.

Ask me how I know!

[mtnjag]

62 3.8 . Running a 4.2 synchro box/bell housing/flywheel/9.5 finger clutch/starter. Flywheel was lightened to 3.8 spec. It’s been 20 years but I recall we used a heavy duty clutch, but not radical. E type racer owned the garage, I couldn’t give specifics at this time. Car is pumped up some but not radical, more cam with nice head work/ 9:1. Clutch is very nice and will do whatever is asked of it with comfortable effort. Neutral at the stop lights.