Which seal to use on sump gasket

Technical advice Q&A

Topic author
Tony
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:12 pm
Location: UK
Great Britain

#1 Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by Tony » Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:31 pm

I am just putting my sump back on and have a choice of two seals to use around the rear crank bearing cap. There is a cork seal and ribbed rubber seal.

Any views on which seal is best, cork or rubber.

Just for clarification I am talking about the sump seal not the crank rope seal.

Cheers Tony
Tony (E typed)

Tony

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mtnjag
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:19 am
Location: Santa Cruz, California
United States of America

#2 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:23 pm

I had a major leak back there that I feared was the crank rope seal. Very difficult to get in there and confirm with that much oil around. But I wasn't spinning off the flywheel so I thought I'd give the sump rear seal a try.

I used the ribbed neoprene and it worked wonders. It looks too long, you put it up there and it "is" too long but don't cut it. I used some Permatex Ultra Grey on the bearing and pan sealing surface, a very light smear, and tacked the gasket up at the ends with a small dap of adhesive.It'll hand down, the pan goes up and all fits into place.

Place a couple of temporary studs part way back on the block sump seal surface to help guide me into place.

Solved the leak problem 98%, hey it's a Jag.

PS. Also used a Cometic Sump gasket which has worked very nicely as well. No muss no fuss
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


christopher storey
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:07 pm
Location: cheshire , england
Great Britain

#3 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by christopher storey » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:32 pm

Personally, Tony, I would use the cork seal . It's a much more resilient material than Neoprene, and the problem today is that you do not know what spec of material you are getting, hence all the rubber pipe failures

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


tim wood
Posts: 765
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:52 pm
Location: Leighton Buzzard UK
Great Britain

#4 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by tim wood » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:19 pm

I had a leak from both the rear seal and the crankshaft oil seal. On dropping the sump it became apparent that the original cork seal at the flywheel end had deteriorated.
I replaced this with the neoprene seal. Didn’t trim it all and used a smear of Wynns black gasket to secure it into the sump recess with another smear at each end of the seal.

Pleased to say no further leaks.

Tim
Series 1 FHC purchased 40 years ago. Courted my wife in it.
Series 1 2+2 when the kids were small now sold.
Series 1.5 OTS in opalescent maroon, Californian car. My retirement present.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
Tony
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:12 pm
Location: UK
Great Britain

#5 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by Tony » Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:08 pm

Well I started off with the cork seal but it seemed quite a bit to long, but I assume it would fit in place as the bolts were tighten up. The rubber seal seemed to fit a lot better so I plug for that. So time will tell. I coated the seals and gasket with a smear of gasket goo so I shall find out the reality when I fire her up. The sump would not come off without removing the reaction plate so I was was quite please that it could be removed without upsetting the suspension set up. So If you ever need to remove your sump there is a perfectly good way to do it without effecting the suspension set up.

Thanks for your advise and I look forward to an oil leak free E Type. Is that actually possible? :fingerscrossed: :fingerscrossed: :fingerscrossed:

Tony
Tony (E typed)

Tony

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mtnjag
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:19 am
Location: Santa Cruz, California
United States of America

#6 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:14 pm

I removed my sump without removing the reaction plate. However I did remove the harmonic balancer.
But once done and having finally set up the crank in the correct position to do it, I don't think that was really necessary either.
Especially using the Cometic gasket that doesn't require any sealers so a little more of the "slipping it up" on the gasket can work without creating a problem or mess.
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
Tony
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:12 pm
Location: UK
Great Britain

#7 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by Tony » Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:26 pm

Hi Layne,

I did not have the space enough between the sump and the reaction plate to remove the sump without removing the reaction plate. I note we both have a 62 car so I must have done something wrong. I wonder it having a five speed gear box made any difference, but I cannot see how.

Whatever the cause it is done now., so onwards and upwards as they say.
Tony (E typed)

Tony

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mtnjag
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:19 am
Location: Santa Cruz, California
United States of America

#8 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:12 pm

Hi Tony,

I am no expert, and it is tight spacing in there, but the key is having the rod journals at the firewall end in a sideways position first. Otherwise they're in the way and won't allow the pan to be slide down and forward. I think I removed the front pan studs too. My harmonic balancer was tough to get off and sounds like from your experience with the reaction place coming off and on easily that maybe that's preferred to the harmonic balancer.

But from my experience it may not be necessary to remove either if set up right to begin with, I wasn't but learned!

There are other numerous discussions of this process but one of them gives you an incorrect dimension for the piston position to position the crank properly. Better just to set up the pistons in the logical stroke position to position the crank properly and adjust if necessary. My final method.

Hopefully you or I won't have to be in there again.
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
Tony
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:12 pm
Location: UK
Great Britain

#9 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by Tony » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:33 pm

Cheers Layne.

Tony
Tony (E typed)

Tony

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

caveman
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:55 am
Location: UK
Great Britain

#10 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by caveman » Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:50 pm

Hi Tony,

I am about to do the same as I have a leak visible at the rear of the sump on my 1965 4.2 FHC. My sump has the two reinforced 'humps' that sit close to the reaction plate whilst in situ.
I removed the flywheel inspection plate today and I have seen evidence that the seal is adrift by approx 10mm.

Having looked into reaction plate removal (incase my sump won't clear it) I was a little put off until I read your post, so I would be interested to hear how you removed it without upsetting the suspension (I'm working with car jacked up on axle stands) . Also, I am looking to remove the pulley and dynamic balancer to aid sump removal as well as treating a couple of leaks from timing cover/cyl head nut area. I take it you removed yours also?

I'm looking at the neoprene seal also.

Thanks in advance. Steve
Steve
1965 S1 4.2 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mtnjag
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:19 am
Location: Santa Cruz, California
United States of America

#11 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:01 pm

Hi,

I and others removed the sump to do the same without removing reaction plate. I did remove my pulley/balancer. Sump then came off easily.

The key is to orient the crank in the correct position so you don't have to lower the sump so much to remove it. It will slide forward enough to do so.

Also, i am not sure but once i did it i think if one removed the front sump studs you may not need to remove either pulley or reaction plate. Worth a try IMO.

I think further up in this or another thread it is discussed.

Layne
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

caveman
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:55 am
Location: UK
Great Britain

#12 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by caveman » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:28 pm

Hi Layne,

Thanks for your reply.

I have read the topic a number of times and I think I will take advice of all. I will certainly try orientation of crank as this seems logical and prior to messing about with reaction plate.
I am torn with removing studs and will opt for removing pulley assy first and foremost.
Steve
1965 S1 4.2 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mtnjag
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:19 am
Location: Santa Cruz, California
United States of America

#13 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:42 pm

Of course up to you. Studs should come out easily with a couple of nuts, outside locking the inside and winding out with inside nut. Not in alum so much better and typically the are well oiled already.

You may find you balancer comes off easily, some do. Mine was a bear.

Regardless i did not have to remove reaction plate which according to other member was not so tough either. But I always figure the less removed the better.

BTW, i used a cometic gasket with no sealer. A little tiny dab of weather strip adhesive held it to the block. No fuss, no muss. No leaks either.

Don’t trim the rear sump seal, it looks too big but isn't. Same trick with the adhesive and i did use Ultra Grey on the bearing channel and pan on those sealing surfaces.

Others may have a better method for you, worked for me.

Have fun.
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mtnjag
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:19 am
Location: Santa Cruz, California
United States of America

#14 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:44 pm

P.S.

I think you have the same pan as me. Smooth with the 2 bumps. Someone can confirm that.
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

caveman
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:55 am
Location: UK
Great Britain

#15 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by caveman » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:11 pm

Thanks Layne,

I'll be purchasing the sump and neoprene gaskets from the well known UK supplier and using wynns black gasket sealer.

Good to know you put the main sump gaskets up to the block first as this is what I intend to do and as per the workshop manual, I believe. I'll also put a smear of sealer on all mating surfaces of the neoprene seal as I don't want to have to do it all again a few months later.

I suppose like everything hand made, particularly in the 60's, no two cars are exactly the same and hence the reason why some have had success with/without removing certain items. Either way, I'm in your gang with removing as little as possible to get the job done.
Steve
1965 S1 4.2 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

caveman
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:55 am
Location: UK
Great Britain

#16 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by caveman » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:06 pm

Sump loose but not off just yet.
Two bumps on rear of sump are close to reaction plate but managed to jack gearbox up slightly.
I've hand cranked engine to see if clearance improves but no luck so far.
Pulley is now off but dynamic balancer is solid.....any suggestions? I've tried tapping it and light leverage with a puller but still stuck in its place.
I may have to remove reaction plate but having not done this before, it's a little daunting.
I have the car on axle stands, wheels on. Any suggestions welcomed.
Steve
1965 S1 4.2 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Tom W
Posts: 625
Joined: Sat May 05, 2018 10:18 am
Location: UK
Great Britain

#17 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by Tom W » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:14 pm

You needs a proper puller to remove the harmonic balancer. They’re not expensive.
Tom
1970 S2 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mtnjag
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:19 am
Location: Santa Cruz, California
United States of America

#18 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:15 pm

Puller on balancer with more than light leverage and tap on the puller rod.
Excuse me but must ask, crank bolt is out right?

You can place a wedge between the balancer and block and tap it up to assist.

Did you see if pulling the front studs will let you get sump off without removing balancer?

You need to get the rod journals off to the side to get the clearance.

Never had the reaction plate off but according to someone earlier not that big a deal.
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mtnjag
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:19 am
Location: Santa Cruz, California
United States of America

#19 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:17 pm

Rod journals are rear/firewall are the ones to get into position.

Oops, crank bolt loose not out. Balancer can spring off when it lets go.
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

caveman
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:55 am
Location: UK
Great Britain

#20 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by caveman » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:51 pm

Thanks for your replies gents.

I have been using a 3 leg puller but I have just seen a previous post with the eurocar parts puller which I'll purchase this week. I'll also get some wooden wedges ready in the mean time. The pulley bolt was in place but wound out loose to provide clearance to pull.

Front studs are out but it won't move forward whilst balancer is in place. I also felt that the main journal position, at the rear, is having no effect as I slowly hand cranked the engine whilst jiggling the sump, I was hoping the sump would have jumped forward and over the reaction plate but no such luck. I'll soak the pulley for now and try again in the next few days. If the reaction plate was better designed I would have been a happy bear tonight.
Steve
1965 S1 4.2 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic