Which seal to use on sump gasket

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mtnjag
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#21 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:57 pm

The main journal is not the issue. Its the rod journals that need to be out of the way to the sides.
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

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tim wood
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#22 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by tim wood » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:41 pm

My sump came down (twice!) when the woodruff key in the crank nose was at the 1 o’clock position when viewed from the front.

Went back in easily enough with crank in the same place. Reaction plate not disturbed.
Series 1 FHC purchased 40 years ago. Courted my wife in it.
Series 1 2+2 when the kids were small now sold.
Series 1.5 OTS in opalescent maroon, Californian car. My retirement present.

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Tony
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#23 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by Tony » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:51 pm

Below is a link to removing the reaction plate without upsetting the suspension.

when I did mine the car was on the car lift so it will be more difficult if you are on axel stands.

Make sure your tapered dowels are a tight fit to keep the bolt holes aligned.

Tony (E typed)

Tony

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caveman
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#24 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by caveman » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:14 pm

Tim,

Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a go before anything else. Did you need to remove the 4 front sump studs (behind crank balancer)?

Tony,
Perfect! Just what I was hoping for :thankyouyellow:
Steve
1965 S1 4.2 FHC

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#25 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by tim wood » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:09 am

Hi Steve,
I removed the pulley and balancer but not the studs.
Front of the sump dropped easily - not an issue. Rear of sump came down reasonably well. Waggling the little bollocks over the reaction plate just took a bit of time. The sump was clearly free.

I did mine whilst on my back with axle stands .
Good luck

Tim
Series 1 FHC purchased 40 years ago. Courted my wife in it.
Series 1 2+2 when the kids were small now sold.
Series 1.5 OTS in opalescent maroon, Californian car. My retirement present.

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mtnjag
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#26 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:19 pm

Yep, what Tim said. Like that tip on the woodruff key position. Good indicator of crank position. Did mine on stands too.

Was thinking if the studs were removed that perhaps it would come out without removing the balancer or reaction plate but per your efforts that does not seem to be possible. Seemed like that might be possible once I had mine out and was looking at the situation.

I guess the question would be which is easier to remove, balancer or reaction plate? My balancer was really tough to get off, never had the reaction plate off.

I guess it might be a little easier to get that rear seal right with the reaction plate off in which case I believe I'm right in saying the balancer doesn't need to come off which of course would be the only advantage.

Someone can correct this if not right.
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

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#27 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by Tom W » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:37 pm

Whilst both can be done on axle stands, the balancer is easier to remove than the reaction plate. With the reaction plate removed, the sump can be offered up vertically, which should make getting the rear seal right easier. However, on axle stands, this might be a bit of a moot point as it’s a bit awkward to offer the sump up completely straight either way.
Tom
1970 S2 FHC

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#28 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by tim wood » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:09 pm

Agree, the sump isn’t the easiest thing to manoeuvre with limited room.
Many years ago on my first e type I replaced the sump and the rear neoprene seal moved leading to a leak.

I’ve learnt a bit since then and this time followed the tips on this forum and affixed the seal to the sump recess with a bit of gasket maker and left it overnight.

Undoing the crank bolt was surprisingly easy with a good fitting socket and 2foot bar. Then I made a simple puller from a bit of angle iron to remove the pulley.


It’s worth reading all of the threads on this topic. If you search on crankshaft oil seal replacement lots of hints and tips.
Series 1 FHC purchased 40 years ago. Courted my wife in it.
Series 1 2+2 when the kids were small now sold.
Series 1.5 OTS in opalescent maroon, Californian car. My retirement present.

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#29 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by caveman » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:29 am

Thanks gents, appreciate all your advice.
I've read all threads now and my puller has turned up today but I must admit I like the idea of removing the reaction plate, if anything just to ensure sump goes straight up and rear seal gets best chance of locating without being knocked out of place.
Steve
1965 S1 4.2 FHC

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#30 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by caveman » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:46 pm

Well sump is now off and residing on my workshop bench. :salute:

The balancer came off with the £12 puller but the sump wasn't having any of it, even with the woodruff key in the 1 o'clock position.

I followed the video for removing reaction plate and the sump came down as expected and the cork gasket has disintegrated. (20 years since rebuild and only 4k miles since - car now has 51k)

I've been shopping around tonight as SNG wanted £19 + vat for posting sump & oil filter mount gasket and found modern high tech cometic version of sump gaskets and rear sump seal elsewhere, what do you think to these?
I know Layne has used them with success, any thoughts before I order gents? I take it you still use sealer with cometic compound?
Steve
1965 S1 4.2 FHC

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#31 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by caveman » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:51 pm

[attachment=0]
Attachments
20200915_214324.jpg
Cork Gasket
20200915_214324.jpg (125.89 KiB) Viewed 269 times
Steve
1965 S1 4.2 FHC

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#32 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by PeterCrespin » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:07 pm

Thoughts?

Part of the reason - probably the main reason - for people's different experiences and advice re sump removal is because the posters often aren't identifying which type of engine. Partial/incomplete info can be misleading.

1)The 3.8 and 4.2 cranks are very different, including the rear and front webs being much bigger on the 4.2. This makes sump removal - which was previously easy - rather more tricky. Jag had bigger fish to fry when designing the 4.2.

2) The 3.8 oil seal holder is grooved for cork and the sump plain. The 4.2 seal holder is plain and the sump grooved for the rubber seal, which is way better, being more resilient after baking in oil. Cork is for wine. Nitrile rubber is for petrochemicals and crumbles not at all. Leaks with both are often technique-related.

Some gaskets are expensive to ship because of the card dimensions on a big engine if they cannot be rolled up. I think cometics are always supplied flat as, being metal-cored, they would take a set if bent. You do NOT use sealant with cometics. That would be like buying a guard dog and barking yourself. Sealant is good at the ends where the cometic may not exactly meet the front seal or rear carrier, or may shift during fitment.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#33 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by caveman » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:28 pm

Thanks Peter,

Totally agree. There was no way my sump was getting past anything internally but I gave some of the suggestions a go on my way to final stage of reaction plate removal (and exhaust system).

As far as seals go, I'm almost certain that it'll be rubber for rear seal and standard for main sump rails. I'd hate to think what the shipping cost would be for the cometic gaskets.
Steve
1965 S1 4.2 FHC

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#34 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:01 pm

Yes, used no sealant on the Cometic. Except put a dab at he ends at bearing and front seal. Also used a couple of very small dabs of weatherstrip adhesive to hold the gasket up to the block surface. Used Permatex Ultra Grey on the neoprene rear pan seal. I should have ID'd my eng as I'm sure 3.8 vs 4.2 makes a difference but had it in my signature so didn't think of it.

Shipped flat.

I also put a temporary stud part was back on the Block rails to help locate the pan and gasket. Offered the pan up, threw a few bolts in and pulled the studs.
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

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#35 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by Tom W » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:57 am

For what it’s worth, my experience of removing the sump was on my 4.2 series 2. I removed the crank damper, but not the reaction plate. I did remove the cover plate that goes over the bottom of the bellhousing. My car was on very sagged engine mounts at the time, which didn’t help. I disconnected the engine stabiliser, and lifted the gearbox with a trolly jack to get as much clearance over the reaction plate as possible. It wasn’t easy, but it did come off and go back on that way.
Tom
1970 S2 FHC

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#36 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by caveman » Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:52 pm

I read that some members recommend not cutting the rear sump rubber seal but having received mine today it's overall length is 5cm longer than the original cork seal when placed flat.

Anyone recommend how much excess is good (each side) to provide good overall compression and ultimately a good seal?

Also, I'll fit the rubber seal to the rear sump to cure in place overnight. Would you recommend a thin smear of sealant on its top surface just prior to sump fitting?
Steve
1965 S1 4.2 FHC

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#37 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:16 pm

Mine was what looked to be way too long. On advice from a friend who is a jag mechanic I did not cut it. I tacked it at both ends to the bearing cap sealing surface (a 3.8) use Permatex Ultra Grey on both sealing surfaces, it hung down somewhat, and brought the pan up to seal. It compressed into place nicely. No leaks. I wouldn't cut it, others may feel different.
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

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#38 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by caveman » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:32 pm

Hi Layne,

I like your idea but I really think there is too much excess here;
seal.jpg
Seal Pressed into Place in Sump
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Seal Comparison.jpg
Seal Comparison.jpg (20 KiB) Viewed 166 times
Steve
1965 S1 4.2 FHC

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#39 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by tim wood » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:45 pm

My new neoprene seal was similar to the difference in length to the old cork seal as you describe.
The cork seal had gone hard and shrunk

Once fitted in the seal recess just a small excess at each end was apparent
I did not trim it and think that doing so will mean you have the joy of removing the sump once more.

A dab of wynns gasket sealer at each

Tim
Series 1 FHC purchased 40 years ago. Courted my wife in it.
Series 1 2+2 when the kids were small now sold.
Series 1.5 OTS in opalescent maroon, Californian car. My retirement present.

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#40 Re: Which seal to use on sump gasket

Post by mtnjag » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:53 pm

I know, looks wrong but i think it’s right. You could just tack it up there without goo, offer up the pan and see how it fits. I Could be wrong but I think you’ll find it fits good.
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

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