Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

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ALAN COCHRANE
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#21 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by ALAN COCHRANE » Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:22 pm

I can see all the images now so not sure what the problem was. I didn't clear or alter anything on my laptop so it's a bit of a mystery.
All's well that ends well as the saying goes.
Alan Cochrane

1962 S1 OTS-850389,1968 Triumph TR250, 1971 Triumph GT6 Mk3, 2008 Porsche Boxster RS60 Spyder

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Heuer
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#22 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by Heuer » Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:52 pm

Alan

The whole internet has slowed down thanks to Black Friday/Cyber Monday and web sites time out after about 30 seconds. Try later.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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#23 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by mgcjag » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:17 am

Hi All...just to keep Rory,s thread in track iv moved discussions on glass moveing to the pub chat area http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php? ... 13b645cb5d Please post any new comments on glass in this new thread....Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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#24 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by JerryL770 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:52 pm

Hi Rory,

This is a problem I suffered at all 4 joint locations on my car and it was due to the fact the restorer had not welded the bottom of the wing to the top of the sill. No weld at all and all 4 sites cracked after I used a jack under 1 sill at the jacking point (testing a BMW jack for roadside flat tyre removal efficacy!!).

I took it to RVR in Kettering for correction. They removed all the filler and seam welded it and repainted. They did a marvellous job of matching the paint. Whilst I was there discussing the work I was shown an original, so far unrestored E-type shell which had been stripped of paint and lead so this displayed the factory work at this joint which comprised a stitch weld (about 1/4") every inch or so along the joint.

I would suggest if yours is only leaded along there and not welded at all, it will crack again, only question being, when?
Jerome Lunt
1970 S2 FHC - Dark Blue, Red Interior, MX5 Seats

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#25 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by PeterCrespin » Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:53 pm

Sorry, Steve -just saw your note. Please do the honours and move my glass thing as necessary.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#26 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by Heuer » Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:40 pm

PeterCrespin wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:53 pm
Sorry, Steve -just saw your note. Please do the honours and move my glass thing as necessary.
Moved.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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#27 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by paulsco » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:04 pm

"I was shown an original, so far unrestored E-type shell which had been stripped of paint and lead so this displayed the factory work at this joint which comprised a stitch weld (about 1/4") every inch or so along the joint"


Image

Image

the sill is spot welded to the A and B post inside too:

Image

Image

Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340

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#28 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by PeterCrespin » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:57 pm

The trick on OTS race cars was to add a stiffening gusset down the inboard B-post and forward along the vertical face of the inner sill, with a curved web triangulating the joint to reinforce the near 90-degree stress-raiser where the two box sections meet. It doesn't have to be big to add considerable stiffness and on a SWB car it's not as if it's going to trip passengers climbing into the back seat. Trimmed in the same vinyl as the sills and B-post most people wouldn't even notice.

If anyone comments, you just need to tap the side of your nose and do your Eric Idle impersonation:

"Works mod. A nice gusset always adds a bit of stiffness, eh? Nudge-nudge, wink-wink. Know what I mean squire?"

"I beg your pardon?" (Add further Terry Jones dialogue, to taste)...
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#29 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by rfs1957 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:38 pm

Decided to bite the bullet and get sanding.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Tons of unnecessary filler in an even loading over the whole bloody car, it appears.

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Crack detection penetrating spray (looks like a very convincing road-accident).

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Clear differentiation between lead-loading and steel panelwork, but apart from my chisel marks from trying to probe for flaws in the filler, no sign whatsoever of any cracks.

Image

Image

Sighs of relief all around ?
Rory
3.8 OTS Cream 877393 Built May 28th 1962
1978 Mini Van
(plus bevel and belt single-cylinder Ducatis)

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#30 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by Gfhug » Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:22 pm

Good news Rory. How good was the fit of the doors and body to justify all the filler? Will you need to put it all back on? Whichever, I wish you well and an easy job getting the finish you’ll be determined to achieve.

Happy Christmas

Geoff
S2 FHC Light Blue
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration

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#31 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by rfs1957 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:01 pm

Yes, Geoff, this is the next step - offer the doors on the shell with Plastiscene instead of seals, and judge what the available depth is. As you point out, there may well be a hidden reason.

Is there any info or drawings on the Forum regarding the desired channel depths etc ?

It has the merit, at least, of being one of the more reasonable requests I've made, requiring the measurement of others' cars, than some I've made in the past !
Rory
3.8 OTS Cream 877393 Built May 28th 1962
1978 Mini Van
(plus bevel and belt single-cylinder Ducatis)

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#32 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by Joes66 » Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:32 am

Rory
You need to look inside the sills and see why its stress fracturing
You really can't get round this
You need to understand why its cracking
I wouldn't go any further untill I was sure that the sills were re fitted correctly or if they have rusted away where they connect to the inner stiffeners etc
If they were not put back right you may well put it all back together and re spray the car just to have it crack again
Joe
1969 series 2 2+2

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#33 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by paulsco » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:13 pm

It could of course just be that the filler was too thick or not appled correctly, that made it crack.

I have to say, I don't like plastic filler, I would far rather re-lead it to adjust the level. should it be necessary.

Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340

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#34 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by rfs1957 » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:16 pm

There were various other completely unstressed areas on the car which, 25 years after the last work on the shell (when it had new sills, whole new rear end, and new bonnet), developed cracks in relatively shallow areas of filler (side flanks of the bonnet, door skins, all of which had been new at the time).

Upon investigation these all turned out to be due to poor initial adherence of the filler, which - anyway - once removed turned out to be unnecessary.

We wondered whether taking it south to experience our temperatures and our low humidity, both being something of a shock, wasn't partly responsible for these coming to light.

So I'm prepared to gamble that the cracks I've got at these corners is just the same problem, exacerbated by the fact that they're in areas of higher stress. Last time I had a bore-scope down the sills it all looked pretty good.

I may yet remove all the lead on one seam just to satisfy my curiosity.
Rory
3.8 OTS Cream 877393 Built May 28th 1962
1978 Mini Van
(plus bevel and belt single-cylinder Ducatis)

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#35 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by tinworm » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:26 pm

Just adding a few thoughts to this thread of Rorys - in Porters tome from memory there is a bit of factory info where a body is put on a hydraulic press bed and deflections of the body were measured and a chart of this is shown - may be useful - Also some years ago I had a OTS body on a jig frame bolted down on the longitudinal members under the floor. The axle mount channels were not bolted to the jig at the time . I could jack under the number plate panel and see the deflection across the spine of the body at the B post - and this with a body built from new panels ie no corrosion. A similar test done on an FHC body a few years later did not show the same weakness. Anything to bolster this area on a DHC body is useful - I see Monocoque metalworks do a system which fits inside the sills which is worthwhile - only of use in a body rebuild situation though.

toodle pip !

Happy Xmas Barrie
1968 E-type roadster, 1964 E-type fixed head 1995 Ferrari 355 1980 Ferrari 308 1987 V8 90 Landrover 1988 Bedford rascal van 1943 Ford GPW

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#36 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by rfs1957 » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:39 pm

Interesting, yes, Barrie - thanks.

I should have added these comments from Chuck at Monocoque Metalworks :

This actually doesn’t look too bad overall - looks like it has had new floors and sills, and then just a little too much filler. The seams between the sills and bulkhead side panels and rear wing should have been welded from the corners in about an inch - that is what has led to the cracking - but this is common even on factory E-Types. (my bold).

I'm assuming the welds he refers to are literally along the sill's length, at the join between the scuttle wrap-around to the front, and the rear-wing panel to the rear.

Hence the project to melt some lead and see what's underneath.

Question : Can the lead loading be re-done without the seam being horizontal, as in flat, so it doesn't run ? Presumably, with it on the tilt, you just work it in the eutectic pasty-phase, put a bit too much on, then rasp it back flat ?
Rory
3.8 OTS Cream 877393 Built May 28th 1962
1978 Mini Van
(plus bevel and belt single-cylinder Ducatis)

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#37 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by tinworm » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:43 pm

With a bit of practice you can lead load upside down Rory.

Barrie
1968 E-type roadster, 1964 E-type fixed head 1995 Ferrari 355 1980 Ferrari 308 1987 V8 90 Landrover 1988 Bedford rascal van 1943 Ford GPW

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#38 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by paulsco » Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:32 pm

"you just work it in the eutectic pasty-phase, put a bit too much on, then rasp it back flat ?"

Yes pretty much; heat it to a buttery consistency and paddle it flat (ish) just enough heat, but not too much.
It goes from buttery, staying on the panel, to running off in an instance, so flicking the heat in and out is the way to go.

I think the most important part is tinning the panel adequately beforehand, otherwise some areas might not stick and you end up bridging areas, which may not be obvious. Also too much heat will distort the panels.

Once the area has been tinned heat up small areas at a time and dab on and break off chunks of lead and repeat across the panel. then go back over it melting it carefully and spreading it with a tallowed wooden paddle. wipe it down with thinners before filing, otherwise it clogs up the body file and it is more difficult to reclaim the filed off lead afterwards.
Using smaller diameter lead sticks definitely helps with the amount of heat necessary.

There are lots of YouTube videos covering this.

I apologise if you know all this, but just thought I should elaborate.

Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340

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#39 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by Gfhug » Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:40 pm

rfs1957 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:01 pm

Is there any info or drawings on the Forum regarding the desired channel depths etc ?

It has the merit, at least, of being one of the more reasonable requests I've made, requiring the measurement of others' cars, than some I've made in the past !
Rory, if it helps the channel depths on my S2 OTS project at the A and B posts are a fairly consistent 15mm, maybe 16mm in places. Measured to a straight edge on the body fore or aft of the channel.

Geoff
S2 FHC Light Blue
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration

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#40 Re: Cracks in the sills at the door corners.

Post by angelw » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:39 am

The main reason for cracking in this area and where the sill joins the cowl, is that in the factory the joint was only tack, or stitch welded and then lead wiped. When I replace sill panels, or do any repairs at either of the areas mentioned, I TIG braze the full length of the joint, as shown in the attached picture, with no filler, either lead, or plastic used whatsoever.

Image



Regards,

Bill

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