Experimental Borrani wheels for Series 1

[paydase]

I just purchased a set of "experimental" Borrani wire wheels for the E-Type, 5.5"x15".
When seeing the ad, I was at first skeptical because of the odd factory numbering of the wheel (RW575), with only three digits after RW (all Borrani wheels are numbered with four digits).

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Providing pictures of the stamping to the Borrani factory to understand if the wheels were genuine Borrani's, I was provided with interesting infos by his manager, Matteo Bosisio, very kind person:

"The first 1000 drawings were components, so after that in the 30’s our tech office decided to archive component parts as RW01-XXXX and leave the RWXXXX ( with 4 digits) the final wheel complex, archived with a single destination per vehicle.

So the imprinting RW575 is wrong, but all the study or unique wheels for customers where archived as ESPXXX, esp= esperienza ( so experience) some of those wheels were sent to final customer for testing on vehicle … so if you have an ESP575 yes is a Borrani wire wheels (test wheel) for Jag E-type but archives shows 6.00x15, studied in 1983. After customer approval thise ESP could become RWXXXX … and in the case of ESP575 it was recorded in 2 variant: RW4441 with 90 mm backspace and RW4442 with 102 mm backspace.

If someone polished out the rim and imprinted RW575 … this is totally incorrect!! The real RW575 is a drawing that indicates construction of tool go and not go to check Rudge Whitworth splines, made in 1924."

I guess those wheels are an early prototype that further down the road became 6.00x15 and a real RW number. The restoration cost is Euro 900 each plus VAT to return the wheels to their beauty and safety.
Any E-type wheel in any configuration brand new is priced at Euro 1.385 plus VAT. So this will tell you the value that those can have as they stand."

In conclusion, such wheels are indeed real Borrani wheels with only a wrong stamping.
I checked that they are 5.5" wide (so that was correctly stamped).

I also measured the back space, and that is 90 mm.
For comparison, the 5" Series 1 Jaguar wheel backspace is 97 mm.
That means that the offset is substantially decreased, going down from 21 mm to about 8 mm.

I think that they will fit nicely on the car once restored (there is some chrome flaking on hubs and also traces of rust at spokes' ends).
Though I will have to see if I can have this done by a specialist at a more affordable price...
Alternatively, and if wear is mainly of a cosmetic nature, I will attempt to give back some luster to these wheels myself.

I would like to know however if the increased track width may have noticeable detrimental effects on handling and steering.
Advice welcome.

[budmarston@aol.com]

Hello -

I do not have personal experience with Borranis but perhaps the best classic car restoration facility in the United States carries them -- you might find their information of some use:
http://classicjaguar.com/borrani-wire-wheels/

[paydase]

Thank you for the link.

It is interesting to see that CJ offers Borrani/Jaguar wheels that are not on the standard Borrani list, only the 5.0x15 standard RW3585 being common.

To compare, here is the Borrani proposal on their website:
https://www.ruoteborrani.com/en/wire-wh ... s-list/32/

In terms of offset and track width, my 575/ESP wheels look to be similar to the RW4441 (6.0x15) wheel proposed by CJ, what they call "standard fit" albeit with a 98 mm backspace, so an offset of about 10 mm (to be compared to the 21 mm standard offset of the 5.0x15 wheel).

Does anybody have handling/steering feedback of using 5.5" or 6" wheels with 185 R15 tyres and a decreased offset?

[paydase]

The wheels I got need some restoration.
There is already the cosmetic aspect, with chrome flaking on the hub and visible surface rust under it:

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Then, not surprisingly, some out of trueness, here a couple of mm visible between the planes of two wheels:

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Finally, some rust on the surface of spokes and, maybe more problematic, also coming out from threaded ends:

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I understand that hubs re-chroming will not be possible without completely disassembling the wheels.
Alternatively, if corrosion appears to be limited to surface, the steel may be treated/primed, and the wheels painted; I don't know if that could be a viable alternative
Any suggestion on how to approach the issue is welcome.

But if many spokes need to be replaced, disassembly may become unavoidable.
I am therefore looking for a specialist that may do the job, possibly at a cost less prohibitive than what is charged by the Borrani factory (about 1000 Euros ...per wheel!).

I know that Phil Hallewell is doing wire wheels restoration in the UK, but because of the likely taxation of the wheels, and/or of the restoration service when items are shipped to UK and back to EU, I would like to know if somebody could recommend a skilled specialist in the EU.

[edriver]

Dear Serge,
the E-mail from Borrani's Matteo Bososio was forwarded to the vendor of the wheels by me. I was confused by the number RW575 and the single picture in the ad and had sent an E-mail to Borrani one Sunday night. The answer was in my inbox only one day later with more detail than I had hoped for.
I hope that you will find a good place to have these wheels refurbished, but if you don't, section M of the Service Handbook under the forum's Technical Information & Documentation describes the process well
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w2k224tjclwfo ... s.pdf?dl=1
Klaus

[Joes66]

The corrosion in the threads of the spokes is not good
They will definitely need to be re built
Do these have alloy rims?
Remember steel and aluminium once put together with salt water form an electrical circuit and start to rust
And there could be more corrosion where you cant see
Don't think I would want to drive my e type at speed on rims in that condition
Joe

[paydase]

Dear Serge,
the E-mail from Borrani's Matteo Bososio was forwarded to the vendor of the wheels by me. I was confused by the number RW575 and the single picture in the ad and had sent an E-mail to Borrani one Sunday night. The answer was in my inbox only one day later with more detail than I had hoped for.
I hope that you will find a good place to have these wheels refurbished, but if you don't, section M of the Service Handbook under the forum's Technical Information & Documentation describes the process well
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w2k224tjclwfo ... s.pdf?dl=1
Klaus

Hi Klaus, So you were the guy who advertised these wheels on Klenianzeigen? If so, I should have written in English, nice to you read you here

Thank you for reminding me Section M of the Service Handbook, that lengthy and delicate process would be my last resort option if I do not find a specialised shop around.

In that case however, I would have to source new spokes as some of them may have to be replaced.
I have not found a supplier of new spokes though.
Would anybody know if e.g. MWS supply these?
Any suggestion welcome.

The corrosion in the threads of the spokes is not good
They will definitely need to be re built
Do these have alloy rims?
Remember steel and aluminium once put together with salt water form an electrical circuit and start to rust
And there could be more corrosion where you cant see
Don't think I would want to drive my e type at speed on rims in that condition
Joe

Yes, I fear corrosion may be serious, hence my preference for a full restoration by a specialist.
Yes also, the rims are aluminium, these wheels are Record wheels.
I am well aware of the galvanic effects between different metals. The corrosion at the threaded ends was probably triggered by the proximity of the two metals in the area and assisted by salty water.

What is unclear yet to me without pushing further (e.g. attempting to untighten the spokes after having sprayed some "lubricant/deruster") is the structural condition of the threaded parts, I will have to explore that and make my mind.
Certainly I will not mount these wheels on my E-Type if they are not reconditioned.

To people skilled in materials treatment and painting:
Assuming that I may change spokes myself in an iterative process without completely disassembling the wheel, would the route of having the wheels sanded, primed and painted (instead of hubs rechroming) be a viable option or not?

[edriver]

Serge,
no it wasn't me putting the wheels on eBay-Kleinanzeigen. I was also interested as a customer, but having practically new Daytons (2019) on my E-Type, I just wanted to know about the offer and the RW-number. It would not have been far from me to have a look at the wheels (Ingolstadt). The guy who had put the ad on E-Bay Kleinanzeigen for the seller was called Philipp.
BTW, your FHC is only a bit younger than mine.
Klaus

[PeterCrespin]

Serge, I have no experience of Borranis on Jags but a lot on motorbikes and some on bicycles a long time ago.

The motorcycle market was mostly for road racing or as original on Moto Guzzi, Ducati etc. but because off-road riding is much harder on wheels that is where I used them most.

Here are my thoughts, which will probably horrify some of the guys here and which you should probably ignore...

Borrani rims are extruded I think and then rolled like a cold forging. So the grain runs along the rim and unlike a cast wheel they will never crack or fail suddenly, and do not get hurt when you straighten them. Basically, unless there is extreme impact they will last for several
rebuilds.

You can polish them while apart but I would not get bright polish (too much upkeep) but a satin finish like the cam covers and carbs should be.

The rust on the spoke threads is only a cosmetic issue in the sense that if it is very bad the nipple will not come off and the spoke will just be cut out. If they unscrew properly and look OK for cracks and pits and bends, they can be re-used.

However, chrome spokes are not ideal, so I would swap for galvanised or maybe stainless. My idea of a beautiful wheel is straight and well cared-for, not new out of the box. No lacquer, no chrome, just clean and tidy, which is also the cheapest option. I would use double butted spokes if available, or single butted. Full thickness spokes are atronger but I hope you will not be doing sidecar Motocross or grass track racing in your E.

Find who the motorcycle or maybe bicycle riders use in your area, although those wheels are live axle design and very simple to put in a jig, whereas a Rudge spline wheel needs a special dummy hub fixture. If you have a wheel hub and upright and spinner you may get more offers.

As a minimum, measure the offset and the lacing pattern before dismantling. Many wheelrights just cut every spoke immediately to save strip-down time, but ask if he has or will make exactly the right type. Hubs and rims can almost always be built up into a strong wheel, but sometimes the result can look a bit ugly if the heads are not at the perfect size or angle and unbutted spokes have to bend over each other near the hub where it can get crowded.

If you hubs need rechroming, custom spokes made and they rebuild quote is high, I would perhaps buy a dozen spokes and a food quality spoke key and just replace any bad spokes and give them to someone for final true and tension.

I would not worry about failure in normal driving because spoked wheels usually unconfortable long before they become truly unsafe. I’d be interested to know the steel/alloy weights.

[paydase]

Peter, that is a very useful and detailed post!
I am now much more confident, I will take my time to digest your many advices and make my way forward.
Thank you very much.

[MarkRado]

Congratulations! What a wonderful and rare period extra

Mark

[paydase]

Peter, I had not noticed your last sentence about the weight, sorry.

My best estimate of the weight of one wheel is 6.2 kg +/- 0.1 kg (measured on a bathroom scale)
That is for a 5.5 x 15 wheel.
Not bad!