Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Technical advice Q&A

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Durango2k
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#21 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by Durango2k » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:40 pm

OK setting needles: I did:

- loosen the setscrew in piston
- use 0.40 mm feeler gauge in nut on needle
- push needle into piston until blocked by feeler gauge - from memory they don´t have a "shoulder", just a slot which fits the 0.40mm feeler blade
- tighten setscrew.

Should I continue with the U1 or buy a set of UM for 60 Euros together ? SNG = 16 Euros each plus 10 freight.

Regarding the plastic insert: The carb piston lands on the carb bridge. To dampen this and IMHO to allow a slot for air to flow through and rip fuel with it, it has a plastic "ring" pressed into it. In a Volvo forum I found that this plastic piece should stick out by 0.2 - 0.3 mm which it does- it made a small dent in the bridge, but there is a slot so air can get through (I think).

Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 75’ Concept Centaur MK1, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650

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#22 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by mgcjag » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:02 pm

Hi Carsten....as per the instructions in the service manual i posted above...look at the photo the lower edge of the groove in the needle should be flush with the bottom of the piston......Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc

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#23 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by MarkRado » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:15 am

Hi Carsten,
just start from scratch, it will be faster and more effective in the end (dont ask how I know):
remove carbs, remove piston, idle screw and float, clean thoroughly with carb or brake cleaner, esp idle screw bores; check body visually; check that the discs fully close (look through the carb against bright light) and open easily; make sure that there is a sealing ring on the piston lifting pin; remove float chamber to check jet diaphragm is not brittle or broken and refit. Check that the choke rods move freely in the body.
Check weight of floats; make sure the float valves open without hesitation and adjust fork (11mm is ok for the moment), refit lid (with gasket), mind position of the serrated washer when refitting the fuel line later.
Clean pots (inside) and pistons (they should move freely without scratching noise) and perform piston drop test on all three units (as per SU manual), fit UM needle (if engine is std), shaft flush with the piston.
If you are fine after all that, the carbs can be refitted using new gaskets.
Adjustment to follow...
Mark
1963 OTS 880436

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#24 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by Durango2k » Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:57 am

I did a complete rebuild 9 yrs ago....they never ran. It was the first I did after the car arrived. I bought a repair kit from Joe Curto, changed the floats (checked them again yesterday).

So, I am very certain to meet all the requirements. I can see that when I crank the engine (no windshield fitted + long arm) and cover the suction chamber hole that fuel standing in front of the throttle disc is sucked into the engine.

My next steps, I think, is to order a new battery, very likely an Optima Red Top, and maybe leave the U1 needles for now. If they are a bit richer that may make sense with the E5 and E 10 fuels of today.
Plus I‘ll re- check the ignition timing- set engine to OT front cylinder using a rod or dial gauge, turn dissi so that the pertronix just fires / that should do it.

But then, if that does not solve it, am clueless. I mean if I hold the pistons open with a screwdriver ans spray into the carbs and then start the engine it runs for some seconds, and it sounds just right and nice.

Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 75’ Concept Centaur MK1, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650

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#25 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by christopher storey » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:06 am

How old is your fuel ? Ethanol 10 deteriorates quickly. And have you sucked out all the float chamber contents with a tube, and replaced with fresh fuel direct into the chambers ? This eliminates the possibility of water being the problem. It is also advisable if you have old fuel to pump it out via the fuel filter into a glass bowl, which will show you if you have water contamination

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#26 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by Durango2k » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:25 am

Fluel age is indeed 3 or so years. I can try to swap that of course, and put this stuff into the Traction, it will eat that no mourning....
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 75’ Concept Centaur MK1, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650

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#27 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by christopher storey » Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:16 am

Carsten : that could well be the problem . I would install completely fresh fuel before you do anything else, as well as making the water check I have suggested above

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#28 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by Durango2k » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:15 am

Whilst at home, after tomato + mozarella, I checked the SU springs.

I don‘t know which color / force vs length values I need, I thought red, but just found SC parts show black/ blue... anyway, I tested as if they were red springs:

The length of a red spring should be 2 5/8 which is 66.7 mm, at 4.5 oz.
You can cut the inner cardboard tube of a toilet paper roll to 66 mm, then fit the spring inside.

This way, the spring cannot escape sideways, and you can use a breakfast plate / wooden slate to press it down on the scale.

Mine are all 147-149 gramms of force at 67 mm. Now, how many grams is an oz ?

Internet says one gold ounce is 31.3 which gives 4.5x 31.1 = 141 (rounded). So I am 8 grams above and I think that would be ok, given the measurement method

But a gold ounce is called a troy ounce, and not an „oz“ ?

The SU book says oz, and when I google that, I get 28,35 grams per oz. That in turn is 4.5 x 28,35 = 127,6, and then I am plus 20 grams off.

Maybe

- these are not red springs, because I cannot see how they might become stronger ?, and I need different springs as well ?

- I got the math wrong ? Is my base a gold ounce or a british oz ?

Besides that, where can I find a needle reference for an U1 needle ? All I found is that Rover P2000 reference, but thats it. I think it is not U01. Its just U1.

Carsten (later off to swap the fuel, just to rule that out)
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 75’ Concept Centaur MK1, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650

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#29 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by malcolm » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:19 am

Don't think the springs will be the source of the problem. When it comes to fine tuning they may need attention, but lack of starting is more fundamental. Good fuel+spark=go. Put in fresh fuel, set everything up as above, plenty of grinding on the starter and see how it goes. If it starts on the spray, it can't be a spark issue?
Malcolm
I only fit in a 2+2, so got one!
1969 Series 2 2+2
2009 Jaguar XF-S
2015 F Type V6 S

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#30 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by paulsco » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:29 am

Hi Carsten,

I think you are going off on a tangent; nether the springs or the needles would stop it from starting, they would just affect the normal running.

Paul
65 Series 1 FHC, 68 Jaguar 340

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#31 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by Durango2k » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:32 am

Oh and did I say I do all the testing without the air filter + plenum ? Maybe that is needed because it richens up the mixture, because it is harder to suck air / more fuel comes out ?

Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 75’ Concept Centaur MK1, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650

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#32 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not star

Post by Durango2k » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:33 am

.... regarding springs and needles, I just want to rule out anything that might sum up. A bit old fuel here, too thick needle there, add a weak battery... and thats it.

More google found AUC 2107 as part number which is light blue/black, 4.5 oz at 3,875=98 mm.
That would 127 grams, I get 110 at 98 mm.

So, mine are a bit weak - if someone can confirm these values I might buy new ones together with the needles (later), or stretch these.


Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 75’ Concept Centaur MK1, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650

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#33 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by christopher storey » Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:46 pm

Carsten : leave the springs alone !! As I explained much earlier, their only function is to regulate the point at which the piston reaches full upward travel so that such a situation coincides with full throttle at max rpm

The various needle specifications for HD8 are given here

Image

As you will see UI is slightly richer throughout than UM, but not by a huge amount , and UE and UO are much richer. Note that the degree of richness is not related in percentage terms to the diameter of the various needles , but is related to the variation in cross sectional area of the annulus between the needle and the 0.125 inch jet

The formula for the cross section of the annulus at each station is 0.0122734375 minus 3.142 X the square of the radius of the needle

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#34 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by 1954Etype » Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:38 pm

I think Christopher hit on it regarding the fuel. If it runs ok when you inject EasyStart, then that has to be a clue. Regarding needles, I assume it ran ok before. As people have said, don't touch anything yet (unless you can see an obvious fault). Empty the carbs and rig up a fuel tank with fresh fuel to test the car with. If that doesn't work, look at your filters/fuel flow.
Angus 67 FHC 1E33656
61 OTS 875047

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#35 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by Durango2k » Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:52 pm

It never ran since I owned it. I bought a complete wreck in 2008.

The needle is not UI. It is U1. I‘ll take better pictures. And I‘ll compare the U1
(as I possibly can...) with the old needles I took out in early 2009.

Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 75’ Concept Centaur MK1, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650

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#36 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by christopher storey » Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:28 pm

This question of the needle is getting confusing as a result of some kind of misprint in the SU catalogue. The needles for the Rover 2000TC 1966 only, is indeed given as AUD 1521 U 1 ( and indeed if you search Burlen's site they come up with a U1 needle out of stock ). When one looks at the cross reference of needles, however, AUD1521 shows up as UI which is indeed a needle for an HD8 as opposed to the HS8 fitted to later Rover 2000TCs.( The difference being , I think, that the HS8 have spring loaded bias needles, whereas the HD8 have fixed needles ) . I will telephone Burlen tomorrow to see if I can clarify the poistion for you , but for the moment I think you can take it that the dimensions given for UI are the ones of the needles you have, as there is no U 1 shown in the list of .125 inch needles, the only numbered U series needles being U70 and UV1 . It might be that Joe Curto's invoice shows the AUD part number as well as the needle designation

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#37 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by Durango2k » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:45 pm

Success !

I swapped the needles for an old set of UM I found in a small plastic container (someone must have given me those I don‘t recall, because I also found my old set), I put the springs back, checked everything another 5 times.

Then I pumped out the old fuel via a short hose behind the fuel filter. Then emptied out the float bowls, and the fuel inside was green. See picture.

Image

It must be the copper in the brass floats together with the Ethanol. I then went out and bought 10 ltrs of Esso supreme, which is E5 (I have to check if any of the 100 octane fuels is E0, I guess none will be, maybe Shell VPower). Then fingers crossed.

First trial was nothing, then I decided to loosen the dome caps / dampers, and try again, and after a second or two she ran. And smooth and quiet, surprisingly (to me), I mean I completely overhauled this thing.

Notice to self- starter motor makes crieky noise when disengaging, and clutch needed 2x pushing before it worked, no idea why, but I saw the spring hanging loose under the car.

Next, drive her out, get the Imp on the lift, take gearbox out, put E-type under Imp on lift, use plastic so Imp does not drip on E-Type. And ask Nick about windshield delivery...12 weeks are almost over.

I took 2 videos:





Now I‘m a happy guy ! Thanks to all who contributed!

Carsten

P.S. the plastic fridge-alike in the films is an old Aldi plastic electric room heater. It was soooo cold and helping Felix is such a frostbite that I decided to put it roughly there and have it blow on us. It helps a lot. Of course its not connected to 230V when I leave, I disconnect any battery when I leave and I have a central 230V disable switch except one plug for loading devices like my CTEK.
Last edited by Durango2k on Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 75’ Concept Centaur MK1, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650

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#38 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by christopher storey » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:49 pm

It's a relief to us all :bigrin: :bigrin:

I am glad this has had a happy outcome

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#39 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by Durango2k » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:09 pm

Okay, so now I think I have to adjust it better.

I do have a colortune, and of course it is a 3 carb setup, each carb serving two cyls.

First - I think - I say I should warm it up by running, say, 5 minutes in idle outside, checking the fan comes up ? I have the lawnmower blade fan with the original otter switch plus the windshield wiper motor. All as delivered in 1966. Or was it 1699 ?

Then use my weber sync tool (sucks air through, shows how much via a needle rising up, you set amount of vacuum on webers by adjusting the linkage so the throttles open equally).

To sync these SU carbs, what must be done ?

All I can think of is the screw which slightly opens the throttle discs and which sits on the rod that is pulled down by the choke. With these 3 I can get an equal vac at idle I guess. Choke would be fully „off“, then, of course.

Then fit colortune, and set mixture by raising or lowering the jets, carb by carb ?

At the same time, keep idle steady at, say, 500 or 600, by using the thick idle screws (behind the dome, when seen from the right front wheel, in the rear right corner of each carb).

?

Carsten
Jag E '66 S1 2+2, 74’Citroen DS 23 Pallas iE, 73’ Citroen SM 3.0, 75’ Concept Centaur MK1, 54’ Citroen 11 BL, 71‘ Velosolex, 88‘ Unimog U1650

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#40 Re: Float level ? S1 4.2 does not start

Post by mgcjag » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:14 pm

Carsten...to set the carbs up read the info in the photos i posted for you above....thats all thats needed....Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc

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