Wing/Door Mirror location

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#1 Wing/Door Mirror location

Post by vee12eman » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:06 am

Hi,
Well I have checked the forum and there are postings about the Series 3 door mirror. However, my question is a little different. I accept that there were two original designs of mirror, the earlier style which has the curved arm and is now made as a replica by Tex, and the later, internally adjustable style. The earlier style is the right one for my early car (only the 97th RHD 2+2) and I have a pair. But, where do the damn things fit?! If I locate them fairly high on the curve of the door, the heads of the mirror seem very close to the upper line of the door (just below the windows). However, if I move them down the curve, they quickly disappear below the window line and become useless. I want a pair for reasons of symetry and to help with reversing, although I know I will never get the visibility from them that I do with my other vehicles (VW Camper and Toyota 4WD). I am not willing to go without, firstly I actually quite like the look of mirrors, even if they are sometimes accused of spoiling the lines of the E-Type, secondly, have you seen the size of the trucks down under! I want all the visibility I can get!

So my questions are, where have people located their mirrors, especially the earlier style original fit type, also can you actually see out of them and are the heads of the mirrors close to the bodywork?

I suppose that also, I may be willing to fit different style mirrors, if I can find a nice chrome style, as a pair and graceful enough to suit the car, then I would consider them, so if anyone has ideas where I can get some, I am very interested in those too.

Any help and/or advice is appreciated,

Regards,

Simon
Simon S-Y
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#2

Post by SESH » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:35 am

Simon, I am interested in this one as well. I have just restored my series 3 and have bought the Tex curved mirror. I have put it on the upper curve of the door near the door frame. I have tried adjusting it and I can't see a damned thing from it. It is too close to the window and the angle of tilt does not allow me to see anything behind except for the tarmac on the road !! :evil:
Any suggestions appreciated.
Mike

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#3

Post by PeterCrespin » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:26 pm

Be aware that the swan-neck original style is, I believe, no longer made. What is currently available new (of which I too have a new pair, albeit with slightly different heads) has the top part of the neck at the wrong angle for an E-type, with the results you describe.

It's as if the right and left handed ones are mixed up but swapping sides doesn't make any difference. You either get 'pretty useless' or 'totally-useless-staring-at-the-floor' orientations. I think they are OK on XJ6 cars, or some such.

Don't know what the solution is, but my mirrors are still packed away in case they come in handy for something. I got them with a Series 2 Daimler I once had
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#4

Post by SESH » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:05 pm

Hmm Sales Guy at TEX told me they were specifically for the E type !! :evil: Never trust a salesman eh!! :x

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#5

Post by christopher storey » Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:32 pm

I use the rather angular rhomboid ones commonly fitted to MGBs. The curious feature of all mirrors for Es is that if you want to see behind you (from the driver's seat) through the passenger side mirror it needs to be positioned in a different longitudinal position from the driver's side mirror . This , it might be thought would look odd, but in practice noone seems to notice

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#6

Post by vee12eman » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:10 pm

Hi,
Thanks for the interest, I must admit that I had reached the conclusion that the mirrors are the wrong type. I can see exactly what you mean about the head being at the wrong angle, but I too believed that they were correct for the e-Type. The "normal" suppliers, including the ones I trust for most things, sell them as suitable for both the E and the Series 1 XJ6/12. I am going to have a look see what I can do, I spent ages trying to source these whilst still in the UK, only to find now that they are wrong. I am tempted to source a couple of the remote versions for later cars, these at least should be correct, but I did want them to be of the correct style for the car and the swan neck ones are relatively graceful.

Another point is that I have never seen a picture showing the location and style of the adjusters for the remote controls of the later mirrors, does anyone have a picture of this, also can they be fitted to early style doors and how is this accomplished?

Oh well. I'll look into it and post if I find an answer. In the mean time, if anyone has successfully fitted the repro mirrors in a useful location, then I will still be interested.

Regards,

Simon
Last edited by vee12eman on Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simon S-Y
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#7

Post by vee12eman » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Hi again,

One other point, does anyone have one of the actual original mirrors for comparison? I an seriously thinking of having a go at modifying one of the mirrors (I actually have a spare drivers side) so that maybe I can get some re-manufactured. I guess if I can get a mould made up, then I could find someone to cast some new arms in the correct shape - it all depends on the material they are made from. Seems pretty desperate I know, but might be worth a try?

Simon
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#8

Post by AussieEtype » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:12 am

Just as an aside, I suspect that in the UK, door mirrors were options and were not fitted as standard.

I have the 11th RHD S3 OTS and it did not have door rear vision mirrors fitted when sold - I bought it in Stamford in 82.

Aust delivered cars would have them fitted - most likely by the selling dealer - as it was law to have a drivers door mirror. These mirrors would have most likely been locally made in Aust and of a slightly different design again.

Garry
1971 Series 3 E-type OTS

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#9

Post by PeterCrespin » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:14 am

vee12eman wrote:
The "normal" suppliers, including the ones I trust for most things, sell them as suitable for both the E

Another point is that I have never seen a picture showing the location and style of the adjusters for the remote controls of the later mirrors, does anyone have a picture of this, also can they be fitted to early style doors and how is this accomplished?

Simon
There is a picture of the remote door control in my V12 E-type Buyers Guide book. Don't ask me to dig it out, life's too short. Yes they can be retro- fitted but it's not for the faint of heart as ittakes more than a couple of tiny screw holes.

The vendors selling the mirrors are presumably being assured by Tex the same as you were that they suit the E. It's one of those things where the part appears to be exactly right until you fit it, but unlike the average bolt-on item the misfit is not something you can measure with a pair of calipers or a ruler, you can't show it without a car handy. So unless someone drove to Tex or a vendor with their car it's impossible to demonstrate. It would be interesting to go to Tex with the mirrors and car and challenge them to show how they should be fitted... Maybe we're all 'spatially challenged'?
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#10

Post by vee12eman » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:03 am

OK, well I have done a little more research on this and it is pretty obvious that the Tex mirrors are wrong. I agree that the suppliers have been duped (probably inadvertently) by Tex into believing the mirrors are correct, but having seen pictures of early cars with the correct mirrors, they sit considerably higher and further out than the currently offered examples allow.
Mike, have you fitted your mirrors? If so, there may be a way you can make them actually show you something useful. I have three mirrors; a pair of the Tex offerings, plus a drivers' side which has slight difference in the moulding, exactly the same shape in the outside, slightly different in the parts of the mirror which remain hidden when installed. I presume this is an original from an XJ6.
Looking at them, it was apparent that this original mirror actually had better adjustment than the others, then I noticed it employs a cup washer between the mirror head and the stem. This allows slightly more movement. However, even this mirror does not seem to have enough adjustment to allow good visibility. Then I realised that the nut on the Tex mirrors and the cup washer on the original, actually prevent the head of the mirror from moving far enough.
The cup washer on the original mirror does allow a greater adjustment, but still fouls against the back of the mirror. I realised that if the cup washer was smaller in diameter then the mirror will move a little further. Initially I made a smaller cup washer, simply by forming one in a vice, between the head of a dome headed coach bolt and a large, thick washer. This worked up to a point, but the nut now fouled the back of the mirror. I made another, but this time using a thicker washer, which also had a smaller diameter. This works quite well, but I have to admit that I still haven't had the courage to drill the holes and bolt them up. I still can't quite decide what to do, but as identified by Garry, I need them for legal reasons and these are one of the few things left to do.
I will report what I decide soon, I have looked at other options and may fit a different style altogether, another option is to fit them high on the door, over the chrome trims, which will have to be modified to accomplish this. However, although this idea sounds drastic, it has the advantage that should I change my mind, I can get new trims which will cover the holes drilled.

Thanks for the ideas, I can post pictures if my explanations are not clear.
Simon S-Y
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#11

Post by SESH » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:32 am

Simon,
I have posted a few pictures of my series 3 with the drivers side mirror fitted (see under series 3 section - restoration pics). It sits too close to the door glass and doesn't adjust to allow you to see anything but the tarmac on the road! If they made an angled black plastic mounting bracket that allowed the mirror to protrude from the door a bit more it would be better, but I'm not sure about the tilt angle though.
Mike

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#12

Post by AussieEtype » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:37 am

Here are two pics of my car - the first about 4 months after I bought it - note no mirrors.

The second taken about 10 years later with the jag "clam shell" type mirror on the drivers door. (I think from the early series XJ cars) Not totally satisfactory but did work. When I finally look at putting my car back on the road I will look at replacing these with something better so following this thread with interest.

Garry

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#13

Post by mystery type » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:17 am

However, although this idea sounds drastic, it has the advantage that should I change my mind, I can get new trims which will cover the holes drilled.
This is also what i have done, i disliked the idea of drilling holes in the door, so i drilled the chrome trim only, there is a big recess behind the strip, so the bolt head sits inside and clears the door panel.

the mirror is then high enough for rearward vision, and the mirror head adjusts up/down/in and out, and the convex lense improves vision further.

and if, at a later stage i decide to remove it, all i need to do is buy another strip.

[img][img]http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i184/ ... ror009.jpg[/img][/img]

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#14

Post by vee12eman » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:59 am

Hi again,

Well thanks for all the interest. I have done some more research and the late Series II and early Series III E-Type and XJ6/12 Series 1 shared the same mirrors, at least according to the parts catalogue on CD which I have; mind you, the JDHT CD for the Series 1 XJ6/12 does not look like a genuine parts catalogue to me, so the number could be the same just for convenience.

Photos do appear to show a difference between the original E-Type fit and that available today, so I agree with Peter that the currently available mirrors are wrong. I have not really got time to go looking for original mirrors, which will be in questionable condition and probably expensive, so I am exploring alternative designs. It seems that here in Australia, dealers fitted aftermarket mirrors anyway, so I can?t really be wrong.

However, I have sent an email with details of the differences to one or two of the major Classic Jaguar suppliers, in the hope that they may agree with these conclusions and at the very least, may stop selling them as suitable for the E-Type. Hopefully, they may work with Tex to produce a solution as they have with so many other unavailable parts in the past, although I doubt it. Maybe those of you who want a set of accurate mirrors could also contact Tex, SNG Barratt, Martin Robey etc. in the hope that the increased interest may produce results?

When I have fitted mirrors I will post the results and if I hear anything from the suppliers I will post here as well.

Mike; your car looks fantastic and has inspired me to giving my own a wash and posting some pictures, which I will be putting on the forum shortly, also in the Series 3 section, I doubt my car will look as impressive, nevertheless I am still proud of the car and have enjoyed the work. Thanks again for the interest.

Regards
Simon S-Y
Series III FHC

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#15

Post by SESH » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:55 am

Hi Simon,
Would be very interested in your future mirror ideas. My mirror was direct from TEX and they assured me it was for the E Type. I will call them to query it, as if enough of us complain it might get them to look into things. I thought that if they produced a new angled fitting it would bring the mirror away from the car. What I mean is the plastic fitting that goes between mirror and car door. If it was thin on the lower edge and thicker on the top edge it would change the angle and bring the mirror further out.
By the way a good friend of mine, who is a senior BMW Tech and previous Jaguar mechanic, worked on the mechanics of my E earlier this year, (before we did the body restoration) has recently emigrated to AUS and is a senior tech at BMW Melbourne !!
By the way thanks for your kind comments on my car.
Cheers
Mike.

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#16

Post by vee12eman » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:45 pm

OK, well the saga of mirrors went on for some time. I can't make any progress until I have mirrors fitted and I want the "right" ones. So, it appears the original style mirrors are unobtainable at present. I contacted my preferred supplier, who sells the current offering with a detailed email including pictures of what seem to be correct mirrors, obtained from the internet. Had I still been in UK I would have attended E50 and probably found something there to absolutely confirm the differences. Now I have heard nothing back from them, but when I phoned to order another style of mirror, I did ask if they had received my email, to be told that they were looking in to it with the company that supplies them, so you never know.

This means I still have a problem of what to fit in the mean time. Eventually I decided on the Clip on designs recommended by many on the forum. This way, if the originals ever come available, I have driled no holes. I did toy with fitting the original later style remote mirrors - drilling holes wouldn't scare me, but there are problems with availability at present. I can now wait until these are resolved, but look at other cars in the meantime. However, there are also problems with availability of the clip on style! I discovered these are made by Tex, as many of the mirrors available are. I am sure there are other manufacturers, but I was concerned about fit and knew these would fit (with minor adjustments to the clip). There is also the option of different mirror head designs, including one with the same profile as the original fit style. Another advantage of going direct to Tex is the fact that all designs come in both flat and convex offerings - I chose convex. The availability problems will be resolved shortly apparently (having spoken direct to Tex) and you can order directly from them - I believe this is cheaper than the suppliers and having ordered from them in the past, delivery was pretty quick. However, I could not wait any longer, so ordered from an Australian supplier, even accepting th big price hike that they wanted; at least they were in stock.

OK, so I've gone on and on (again!). What do they look like?

Well, here goes:

Image

Image

Image

Image

This was just a quick fitting, I have yet to road test and adjust, but they don't protrude far from the car, so are less likely to get knocked than some, but don't fit straight from the box (actually; bag). The bracket which fits inside the channel is too long and had to be cut back about 4mm to allow the mirror to sit totally on the frame and make it much more steady. The frame is relatively delicate, so there is movement, but as I said, with no road test, I can't vouch for efficiency. I bought a pair (they are not handed), but, to add to the saga, only one arrived at first, so I have no pictures of the LH mirror fit. I now have the second mirror and fitment is exactly the same, I note however that the arms are adjustable as well as the heads, so if you fit two you need to ensure the arms are adjusted symetrically so the car doesn't look lopsided, obviously the mirror heads have to be adjusted for visibility.

That's it for now, but if I find a better solution or a source of original mirrors I will post in future.

Regards,
Simon S-Y
Series III FHC

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#17

Post by SESH » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:26 pm

Simon, I found a workable solution for my "E Type Tex mirror". I cut and shaped a small piece of wood that slots between the mirror base and the door mounting (between the sprung base upper section) that now changes the angle of the mirror so that I can now see effectively behind. So that it didn't look out of place I sprayed the wood "wedge" silver. It's not concourse but it works.
Cheers
Mike.

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#18

Post by vee12eman » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:44 pm

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the response, I did think of something like that, I may try this route in future, but after making a wooden buck, I might try to replicate it with a piece of stainless steel. I still want to wait and see if the specialists actually do try to solve the problem though, before I drill holes! Any chance of a photo?

Regards,
Simon S-Y
Series III FHC

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#19

Post by SESH » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:23 pm

Hi Simon,
Here are a couple of pictures.
The wedge is a bit crude but it works!
Cheers
Mike.
Image
Image

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#20

Post by vee12eman » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:58 pm

Hi guys,

So some months ago I started this thread and never really found original mirrors which fitted and worked. As I mentioned in one post, i was going to contact some of the dealers to ask questions as to why the mirrors did not work, despite being advertised as suitable for E-types.

I am pleased to report that Julian Barratt of SNG has got back to me, having investigated and revised the dseign og the mirror head, here is his email to me:

Hi Simon,

Good news. The re-jigged version of the mirror has been fitted to Series 3 E-Type which was previously fitted with the previous incarnation (thus allowing a like-for-like comparison). The owner has advised me as follows:

I'm happy to say I can see a big improvement due to the angle visibility the sample mirror provides, I can now see the top and side of the rear wing, something I couldn't do before.



We have added the modification to our build sheets here and all future production will be done in this way.


He has offered to send a sample to me with my next order, I will take him up on the offer when I need something - I haven't done much with the car recently as I have been busy on other projects but now the weather will start to warm up I will be out and about soon. I will keep you posted on the results - if anyone does try these mirrors, the results would be very interesting.

Regards,

Simon
Simon S-Y
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