Soundproofing

Technical advice Q&A

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jonr
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#1 Soundproofing

Post by jonr » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:16 am

Hi,
I have just bought a complete interior trim kit from BAS including ??? underfelt. My floors is renovated and are just painted steel now. I was thinking of putting on some bitumen 3mm self-adhesive mats for soundproofing. Is this wise or should I use anything else instead or in addition?

In hotter climate I have seen they often use some heat insulation to reduce the heat from the exhaust, but here in Norway I am not sure if that is necessary? Usually we need all the heat we can get :)

Any ideas?

Jon

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1954Etype
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#2 Re: Soundproofing

Post by 1954Etype » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:16 am

If I were you, cover the entire interior with heat and soundproof material - even soundproof the boot on the OTS!

You will be surprised at how hot they get inside the cabin!
Angus 67 FHC 1E33656
61 OTS 875047

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ChrisC
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#3

Post by ChrisC » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:11 pm

There are a number of acoustic damping materials you could use and some are heat reflective too. Try a few of the race car suppliers or any of these


http://www.dynamat.com
http://www.carinsulation.co.uk
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk they sell cool-it - thermo/accoustic matting
1964 FHC 4.2
Etype restoration blog http://connor.org.uk

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PeterCrespin
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#4

Post by PeterCrespin » Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:41 pm

Apart from my Series 3 OTS, and the S1.5 2+2 which I didn't drive for very long, I've only ever had left hand drive E-types but have never noticed a heat problem. I've driven round Europe with long headers and with the standard exhaust and no problems. True, I did wrap the long headers now that I think about it. I just did 400+ miles on Christmas Day in a standard FHC at a constant 4000 rpm and it only felt vaguely lukewarm around the gear lever, which was a pity as the heater doesn't work on that car.

Maybe it's the fact that even a D-type seems luxurious compared to bicycles and motorcycles. Dunno. Depends what you're used to I suppose and what you can tolerate. I seriously doubt you'd have an issue in Northern latitudes and the fact someone in Arizona or New Mexico complains of excess E-type heat is unlikely to 'reflect' your reality.

The factory put 'Flintkote' bitumen panels around the interior in various places for sound deadening. I don't think they used it around the left toe board where lot of heat is supposed to come in, but it will have helped interrupt heat flow slightly around the tunnel. The jute padding and carpet would be the main barrier, along with the big foam piece over the gearbox and the heat shields fitted to each model.

Pete
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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Mark Gordon
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#5

Post by Mark Gordon » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:18 pm

"Dunno. Depends what you're used to I suppose and what you can tolerate."

You have to realize that Pete is one of those people who is comfortable driving around with the hood down when it's 6-8 deg. C. with misty rain. :lol:
Mark

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Dave K
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#6

Post by Dave K » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:49 pm

I covered every part of the interior including the boot floor with the same material they used in the Aston Martin DB7. I also used a sheet which was 400 x 300 inside the door skins, the nose cone on the underpan and the underside of the boot lid.
At the time I had enough to do about 10 cars but I left it all piled up in my garage when we used to get hot summers and it all melted together, in the end I was lucky to get enough to do my car.

After reading the Colin Ford resto in practical classics he recommended using heat reflective material on the outside of the tunnel and into the footwells so I did that as well and the underside of fibreglass gearbox cover.
I get no heat transfer at all and no vibration either.

Another tip is to use self adhesive 6mm thick insulation around the heater pipes in the bulkhead wrapped in self adhesive aluminium tape.
You can get the self adhesive insulation from B&Q or Homebase.

Dave

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#7

Post by Heuer » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:30 pm

I use Kool-mat which is available either in sheet form or as a kit for the E-Type. Superb! More info here: http://etypeuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=181

You should use reflective material (e.g Dynamat) on the outside body surfaces - gearbox tunnel, bulkhead etc - and insulating material (e.g Koolmat) on the inside of the car.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red

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jonr
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#8

Post by jonr » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:11 am

Thank you for the good input, information and recommendations (as always).

I will try to find out what's best for me and will probably do some post in
"Restoration Stories and Owners Gallery" later :)

Jon

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chrisvine
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#9

Post by chrisvine » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:46 pm

Jon,

I?ve just installed a reflective heat shield material in my rebuild produced by Zircotec. If you go down that route, it might be worth considering as it?s quite thin (0.25mm) and so easy to apply. Although, obviously, it doesn?t have the additional sound deadening properties of Dynamat.

With the Zircotec, it was definitely better to make accurate templates out of stiff paper to get the fit spot on rather than trying to cut/shape in-situ.

It?s quite bright but should mostly out of sight once the transmission is in place:

Image

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1969 S2 OTS, Elise S1

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#10

Post by PeterCrespin » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:32 pm

chrisvine wrote:Jon,

I?ve just installed a reflective heat shield material in my rebuild produced by Zircotec. If you go down that route, it might be worth considering as it?s quite thin (0.25mm) and so easy to apply.
Looks neat but ten thou is VERY thin. Might as well stick baking foil on. Do you mean a tenth of an inch (2.5 mm)? Looks dimpled so I assume it uses air as an insulating layer, as well the obvious reflective action.

Pete
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#11

Post by chrisvine » Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:20 am

Ok - hands up! As yet, I've not done a comparison test with Bacofoil. I?ll report back after next Sunday?s roast :lol:

My understanding was the Zirconium oxide coating provided a low thermal conductivity layer but I?m not a thermal engineer so I may well have wasted my time ... again :roll:
1969 S2 OTS, Elise S1

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#12

Post by PeterCrespin » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:01 am

I'm not a thermodynamics wallah either, but from schoolboy physics I think insulation effectiveness depends on a material's specific conductivity PLUS the thickness of the layer in question.

E.g. foam polystyrene is an excellent insulator and a couple of mm under your wallpaper can hide a few bumps and stop condensation, but the layer is way too thin to do much by way of insulating the house itself. Likewise, fibreglass wadding between your rafters has modest effect at the old 1-2" thickness but today's 6" spec really cuts the heat down etc.

So although I don't know your stuff, I'd expect most of the effect would be reflectance rather than conductance, and any dimpling would increase the surface area but more importantly trap a bit of air to interrupt the direct heat path. Sound deadening would require much more mass.

Looks nice though :-)

Pete
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#13

Post by daykrolik » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:19 am

I've used Dynamat Extreme, and Dynaliner where appropriate e.g. floors, tunnel, with great success on a '67 OTS and an XK 150. It's easy to work with and deals with both heat and noise. No need to pay for a pre-cut kit. It's very easy to cut yourself.

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#14

Post by PeterCrespin » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:10 pm

When you say 'great success' what model and which side steering is it and what are you comparing it to? Not quibbling, just interested.

The LHD FHC is probably the model most likely to fry the owner, although an OTS with a well-sealing top may be worse. The low-geared US models are probably the worst of the worst for heat build up.

Yet the 3.54 LHD coupe I drove for 400+ miles on Christmas Day had no floor insulation whatsoever - having only a badly fitting LWB rubber mat instead of underfelt and carpet. Despite 300-ish miles being at 4000 rpm, the absent insulation and trim was also a 'great success' with the rear quarterlights firmly shut. See what I'm driving at?

I'm quite sure there have been people who got uncomfortably hot in their E-type and that some have noticed a difference from using modern materials. I would also assume the incidence of problems may be higher in LHD cars because they tend to run in hotter climates than the UK (except Oz and RSA I suppose). But for every buyer of Dynawotsit who experiences a genuine useful benefit, I wouldn't mind betting there are ten who have no real baseline.

Far be it from me to question the Emperor's new clothes, but if my worst-case low-geared, long-distance, high-revs, bright winter sun experience is any guide, the factory insulation is adequate and even without it there isn't a huge problem of heat build up. In high ambient temps and hot sunny weather there is an issue but a lot of it comes from solar gain and Dynathingy has no effect on that source of heat.

I'd love to hear how many listers, especially UK, ever had a serious heat problem despite a functioning heater valve and correct exhaust heat shields.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#15

Post by daykrolik » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:24 pm

Although I've been working on Jaguars for nearly 50 years and have owned an XK150 for 48 years, I purchased a LHD 3.54 OTS two years ago. I drive the car on Long Island New York, where it can get hot in the summer and traffic necessitates more slow speed monitoring than one would like. In the summer of 2011 I found the interior of the E unusually warm compared to other Jaguars and other cars I've owned and driven. Engine and/or exhaust system radiation clearly seemed to be responsible, at least in part.
I installed the Dynamat in the doors where, since the original sound deadening material was missing, it significantly improved the "solid" sound when closing the doors. I installed Dynamat on the sides of the tunnel, the floors, the toe panels and under the dash. I installed Dynaliner (1/2 inch) on the floors and tunnel. These replaced the original type padding. Afterwards, under similar conditions, the interior of the car definitely seemed cooler and there was some desirable sound deadening.
At least here in the US, I think the perfectionists might suggest the use of
Koolmat, Dynamat AND Dynaliner. I thought that was excessive and, frankly, did not want to spend the money. Using bulk Dynamat and Dynaliner, my total cost was approximately $100. And, yes, when installing you should be reasonably careful of the sharp edges where the metal foil is cut. With moderate care, it's no problem.
I hope this further information is helpful. I do not purport to be an expert or to have done a scientific study. I was just trying to be helpful by throwing in my experience in response to the original inquiry.

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#16

Post by Heuer » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:19 pm

Pete

I did, in an OTS! This was few years ago after we journeyed down to Biarritz and air temperatures were around 40c. Could not go quickly because of traffic and putting the roof up to act as a sun shade only meant the cabin heat soak was worse. I did a lot of research and the only product that made sense was Koolmat as it is an insulator consiting of a woven mat covered with a silicone layer to hold it together.
Image

To give you an idea of its effectiveness you can wrap it around an exhaust downpipe and hold it there with your hand. It made a huge difference to cabin temperatures although it does mean we have to use the heater more often. Allowed me to completely cover the interior and the silicone made the whole thing moisture proof. As an added benefit there was a marked reduction in noise and resonance. Koolmat is quite heavy but relatively thin.

I saw many cars whose interiors had been swathed with Dynamat foil which seemed a complete nonsense because all it could do was reflect heat back into the interior and conduct heat in from the exterior. I was told it also made correct fitting of the underlay and carpet impossible because nothing would stick to it. May act as a sound insulator but not much good for heat isolation.
David Jones
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1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red

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#17

Post by PeterCrespin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:01 am

I could believe that slower is worse. Didn't you have the ETF six-branch though, and missing heat shield(s)
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#18

Post by 1954Etype » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:08 am

I fitted dynamat with great results too. I wanted to insulate against sound and heat. I personally would disregard Petes claims as he regards riding motorbikes long distance in minus temps and wet conditions as ok. Driving an E type (or any car) is therefore luxury to him!
Angus 67 FHC 1E33656
61 OTS 875047

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#19

Post by Heuer » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:23 pm

Yes Pete, I did have a Tony Laws tubular manifold and no heat shield but the difference after fitting Koolmat was most impressive. The biggest improvement was I did not feel the soles of my shoes were melting whilst driving. If you intend to pootle down to the pub on the odd Sunday afternoon then it is probably not worth it but if you are planning to cross Europe in the height of summer ..............................
David Jones
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#20

Post by PeterCrespin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:12 pm

Heuer wrote:The biggest improvement was I did not feel the soles of my shoes were melting whilst driving.
I think we're getting two issues mixed up. I've never said these materials don't work - I think they're great and I used a cheap version of Koolmat myself on the stolen car because of long-branch headers. My point was that I'm not convinced the standard car is all that hot when correctly equipped with OEM exhaust and the full complement of shields, gearbox foam, and jute padding that has not been squashed to death over the decades. That's my only point, and when I first made it I think I said it probably has a lot to do with personal preference or tolerance, not the supposition that a totally standard and complete E-type is ipso facto like a sauna inside, due to engine/exhaust heat.

Your car was not standard when it got very hot. There was extra heat being generated and some shielding was missing, so it's hardly surprising. Consequently, your evidence is inadmissible in the narrow consideration of whether or not a standard-exhaust E-type gets unbearably hot due to under-bonnet heat transmission. Angus's data are also inadmissible, as he can't say how hot his car got before he upgraded the insulation. Nothing personal, and you're both experienced E-type guys, but I'm only talking about how hot a standard E-type gets due to under-bonnet heat. We all know it gets stuffy inside on hot days but that's not relevant either, becaue I'm sure standard cars did too and Koolmat/Dynamat cars are not immune.

'Mr Daykrolic's' input is closer to what we need, since he has before and after info. He is very experienced but it is to be expected that an E-type would be hotter than other Jags he's had (without knowing what they are). I don't regard it as conclusive yet because he hasn't said if it had standard exhausts and heat shields. Plus of course, as Angus points out, even then I might not think his car was all that bad apart from the effects of driving slowly in Metro NYC on their very hot summer days. His main point is that his insulations lowered noise and heat, which I totally accept, without knowing if his info deals with my narrow question.

The slow driving point is interesting and may be a reason I didn't get hot on Christmas Day in the FHC, despite the high revs for hours on end with no cabin insulation and the windows shut. But then I've done many trips in LHD E-types that included horrible city work too. Although the tunnel and lever got pleasantly warm, I didn't feel uncomfortable.

I suppose it's all a reaction to what I read on J-L when I joined years ago. I heard these horror stories about LHD cars and it made sense because you're sitting on the hot side. Yet despite most of my miles being in LHD cars nothing remotely like that has happened to me due to exhaust heat, only from getting into a car parked in the sun or pootling along on very hot days with lousy ventilation. Non-standard cars undoubtedly get hotter, Koolmat etc undoubtedly works well, but the 'problem' they are fixing remains tantalisingly vague and subjective....
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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