Define the spacer into the hub

Technical advice Q&A

angelw
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#21 Re: Define the spacer into the hub

Post by angelw » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:49 pm

Christopher Wrote:
Pre-loading the hub bearings is directly contrary to Jaguar's specification and is bound to increase the heat produced in the bearing . I don't wish to be rude but what is this fascination for knowing better than the manufacturers ? It crops up time and again in this forum
Jaguar engineers put their pants on in much the same way as the rest of us. Thinking, manufacturing methods, accuracy change. Preload of diff pinion bearing, measure by the amount of torque required to rotate the pinion shaft, was specified by Jaguar for early cars at approximately 9lbin torque. For later cars with the same differential, it was specified at around 26lbin torque. The specified End Float of the Rear Hub Bearings, in the life of E Type production, went from a nominal End Float of 0.004" (0.002 to 0.006) down to 0.002" (0.001 to 0.003"). Things change; evolution.

The fit of front wheel bearings on the stub axle is far from optimum in engineering terms. Every Jaguar stub axle I've examined that has fair mileage, show a distinct wear margin from 4 to 8 o'clock. This wear margin is due to the inner race of the bearing rotating on the stub axle; hardly the design criteria for a tapper roller bearing operation. The bearings would function much better if the inner race was an interference fit with the shaft, or there was a spacer place between the inner races of the inner and outer bearings. The reason for the running fit of the bearing inner race with the shaft is for expedience of assembly and disassembly; no engineering principles involved.

End Float setting of the rear hub bearings is not wrong, but it is not the best setup. Bearing manufacturers will tell you this. I count as a friend a past (retired) chief engineer of Timken Bearings; I had dinner with him and his wife this very night. He and I have discussed this matter at length and he is unequivocal in that Taper Roller Bearings work better in light preload.

Regards,

Bill

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JerryL770
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#22 Re: Define the spacer into the hub

Post by JerryL770 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:31 pm

As a younger man . . . too many years ago! I rallied a Mini Cooper S. This had taper roller bearings in the front hubs (and rear also) so the front hub was fairly analogous to the E-type rear hub.

There was no bearing adjustment available, the hubs were done up tight with a spacer between the inner races. There was no way (or requirement) to measure the pre-load.
Jerome Lunt
1970 S2 FHC - Dark Blue, Red Interior, MX5 Seats
2008 MX-5 NC PRHT

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angelw
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#23 Re: Define the spacer into the hub

Post by angelw » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:35 am

Jerome Wrote:
There was no bearing adjustment available, the hubs were done up tight with a spacer between the inner races. There was no way (or requirement) to measure the pre-load.
Hello Jerome,
There are many vehicles that have, and the makers specify, preload for their wheel bearings. Many have a back to back, angular contact bearing arrangement, that when pressed together, provide a predetermined, built in preload.

I haven't done much mechanical work on Mini Cooper S cars, only panel work. However, looking at the contents of a Front Wheel Bearing Service pack, it contains a solid, one thickness fits all, spacer to be arranged between opposing Taper Roller Bearings. All of the parts associated with the wheel bearing system are made within a tolerance range. Depending on how the size of each part in the assembly and where that size sits within its tolerance range, stack up, the amount of preload (or end float) will vary, but will be limited by the thickness of the spacer.

The Rear Wheel Bearing system has no spacer between the opposing Taper Roller Bearing, therefore, whatever force is applied by the securing nut, will be applied in total to the bearing system. I see several references being made to 60lbft torque applied to the rear wheel bearing system via the securing nut. This equates to quite substantial preload being applied to the bearings.

Its worth noting that the diameter of the Mini Cooper's wheels are far less than any E Type model, meaning that for any given speed of each type of car, the Cooper wheel bearings are revving approximately 32% faster.

Regards,

Bill

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JerryL770
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#24 Re: Define the spacer into the hub

Post by JerryL770 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:05 pm

Thanks Bill, I had forgotten there was no spacer for the rear wheel bearings and I cannot argue with your figure of 60ft.lb. torque for tightening but it seems pretty high to me.

I may have a workshop manual still but this is a little off topic now :?:
Jerome Lunt
1970 S2 FHC - Dark Blue, Red Interior, MX5 Seats
2008 MX-5 NC PRHT

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johnetype
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#25 Re: Define the spacer into the hub

Post by johnetype » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:55 am

The Mini rear taper roller bearings did have a spacer (admittedly built in to the inner race) otherwise applying 60 lb/ft to them as a preload would have destroyed them.

When BL introduced the Austin Allegro it's rear hubs had taper roller bearings whose preload was meant to be set in the time honoured way of lightly tightening the stub axle nut until the washer underneath could just be moved easily with the end of a screwdriver. In practice so many mechanics, used to the Austin 1100 and it's ball bearings wound on 60 lb/ft destroying the bearings that BL had to introduce a warning notice attached to the hub pointing out the correct procedure as the warranty claims were costing them a lot of money.
John

1969 Series 2 FHC

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angelw
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#26 Re: Define the spacer into the hub

Post by angelw » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:03 am

John Wrote:
The Mini rear taper roller bearings did have a spacer (admittedly built in to the inner race) otherwise applying 60 lb/ft to them as a preload would have destroyed them.
Hello John,
I just got to look at the bearings you're referring to. The inner race of both bearings are extended and protrudes from the small end of the Cone component of the Taper Roller bearing. Obviously, the end will come together when assembled and set the preload, or end float (whichever was meant to be) within a specified range when the nut is tightened.

The dimension tolerances of the parts in the assembly, small for the bearings, but probably reasonably large for the Hub that carried the bearings (BL wasn't renowned for quality production) would affect the amount of preload. or end float in the system. As I stated in my earlier Post, I haven't worked on the mechanical side of the Mini, so I'm unaware if the set up of the wheel bearings is to be preload, or clearance.

Regards,

Bill

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madjack4
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#27 Re: Define the spacer into the hub

Post by madjack4 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:25 pm

Hi the discussion seems to have gone off the e type set up no one has mentioned the diff bearings run in oil to cool them under preload the wheel bearings are filled with grease and has not got the capacity to cool the bearings i built my rear bearings with next to no play after a 50 mile run i got my thermostatic infra red gun and checked the temp of both hubs the left was slightly hotter i replaced the spacer to give slightly more play now they both run same temp anyone concerned about there bearings can buy a infra red head gun to check there bearings after a good run these guns are one of the best tools in a tool box checking for sticking brakes misfires ac temps all for about £30.00 off ebay


Rob
Rob 1972 s3 roadster
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