Track rod ends despair.

christopher storey · Post by **christopher storey** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:52 pm

John : I don't really want to get involved in discussion of the law, but of course negligent acts or defaults ( and indeed defects encompassed by the Consumer Protection Act ) are irrelevant unless they are causative of damage . We have no means of knowing precisely what the original spec of components was , and nor do we know with any certainty what changes in spec were made from time to time. Bearing in mind that Arthur Whittaker bought Jaguar's components from many sources over the years, it follows that what is important is that modern replacements should be sufficiently within the tolerances not to cause necking of the components on the housings. Provided that is the case, and the material specification is such that the strength of the components also is sufficient, it would in my opinion be difficult to prove that the parts were negligently manufactured, or indeed defective, and even more difficult to show that any departure from specification was causative of damage

johnben · Post by **johnben** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:51 pm

Chris thanks for the reply and the points you make, I showed the extract from the Consumers Protection Act to indicate what is expected from the industry by the regulations and if anyone in the future does hit trouble. Regarding your other point if indeed theses parts have been made within limits set by designers/engineers who have looked at the whole steering suspension set up and have decided that it can still work efficiently with parts whose specification differ from the original but within the parameters set by the original design team, then I apologise to everyone concerned for waisting their time.
However, if we look back over time this problem with the TRE's and later the shock absorbers was bought to the attention of the forum sometime ago because the components just did not seem to fit or behave as they should have and if we look what is on offer still today we see we can purchase at least 3 different TRE.s which differ from each other and at least 7 different size shock absorber all claiming to fit the E Type. Though it is true a 395 mm shock absorber would appear to hide the short comings of the SNG TRE I wonder how short we have to go before we can do the same with the TRE from Quinton Hazell? To mind this is not an engineered solution it is a bodge.
The industry has had plenty of opportunity to slap me down, to date I have emailed:

SNG Barrett (no response)
Quinton Hazell (no response)
BOGE (no response)
Amsteer (who make TRE's for E Types in the UK) (no response)
Spax (reply received see Forum entry 8 Set 2014)
Lightweight Jaguar Team (no response)
E Type UK ref article for magazine (positive response)
I have attached one of the emails which I sent out to show these were no more than polite requests and I think that most responsible companies would respond when a query is received about their product.

John
1967 Ser 1 2 + 2

Email to Amsteer Ref: Track rod ends for E Type Jaguar

Hi,

I understand your company manufacture a track rod end (TRE) AMP 5 for the E Type Jaguar.
The reason for me contacting your company is that their is some concern within the Jaguar E Type community regarding aftermarket track rod ends (TRE's) now available for this car, the problem is that they do not appear to angulate open far enough. I understand that the steering/ suspension set up is different from other Jaguars and the after market suppliers do not seem to have accounted for this. There also seems to be a problem with the aftermarket front shock absorber now available for this car as they appear to extend too far which appears to exacerbate the problem indicated above.
My question is do you supply a TRE more suited to the Jaguar original that I can purchase or is there a possibility you could provide one in the future?

John

Post by **mgcjag** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:29 am

Back on topic............just been in touch with David Manners.......they have 2 tre,s listed....when I spoke to the sales guy he looked both up comments were that C25447 did not have full articulation of the joint.......if full is required use C25447*E-Type........asked if they could confirm the angle and without me saying what it was they stated 125 deg.......so have ordered a pair should be here tomorrow .....will keep u posted

44DHR · Post by **44DHR** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:38 pm

I have been following this thread with interest and I have just called Steve at David Manners and ordered a pair - at a very reasonable ?30 a pair.

He said they only had two pairs left now.

I mentioned this Forum debate and told him he may be getting a few calls !!!

regards,

Dave

Post by **mgcjag** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:26 pm

Hi Dave.......they charged me ?36........they said the ones that didnt open up as far were cheaper...........will check the angle when they arrive ...expected tomorrow...please post back here the part no u recieve and the angle...PS......do u have the necking issue..if so what shocks and tre,s are u currently on...thanks Steve

Post by **Heuer** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:30 pm

They are ?30 + VAT = ?36 I believe

44DHR · Post by **44DHR** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:18 pm

Steve - Heuer is correct, the parts were ?30, but with the 20% VAT they would be ?36. I just forget the VAT part. In fact the total was ?30 for the parts and ?8 for the packing and shipping, so when VAT is added to both I have been charged ?45.60.

I don't have an issue with necking at present, but my viewpoint is that if I see something or parts that I could possibly need - I buy it then - rather than find it has gone or unobtainable later when I do need it. Having followed the pain of others on this thread, ?45.60 paid now could save me more in the long run - and certainly Steve at David Manners knew his stuff. The David Manners website shows the part number "C25447 E Type" as a pair for ?30 (ex VAT) and this is what I am expecting in the post. This now it begs the question as to why they list the other 3 Track Rod End options - all with the same part number of "C25447" at a cheaper price of ?12.45, (ex VAT) each, if they can supply the correct ones ?

I have Koni Classics all round and interestingly (?) when I just checked my Track Rod Ends which were supplied by XK Engineering in November 1997, the part number on their invoice is C33424 and described as "E type TRE" - which is also shown in their Catalogue issue number 4, page 34 and on their current web catalogue as "All E type". Not sure where that part number comes from, as the Jaguar E type parts book shows C25447, (with "supersedes C24525" in the remark column), but I certainly have had no problem over the years and I have had these joints in and out many times.

I am getting my winter jobs up on the workshop whiteboard and one job is to rebuild my steering rack and the new 8 tooth pinion and rack set turned up from Kiley - Clinton Engineering today with all the bearings and bushes, so I will have a better look over the winter months, but at least now I will have a good selection of parts to use.

cheers,

Dave

44DHR · Post by **44DHR** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:47 am

Footnote to the above post.

I phoned XK Engineering this morning to ask the part number for a Series 1 E type TRE and I told the parts guy their part number - as shown in their catalogue and current on-line page was C33424 for all E types. From that number reference he confirmed these were in stock and gave me a price of ?18.65 (ex VAT) each. He looked it up further and then told me he had referred to David Manners website and this part number was for a XJ6 TRE. He then looked into his system and said that on part of their system C33424 was now superceded with C25447.

So a bit of confusion there and he had no knowledge of the E type extra articulation issue, plus it was interesting he had gone to the David Manners website as a point of reference.

I told him that had supplied me C33424 TREs back in November 1997, and I can confirm those ones are not XJ6 as they have the same longer barrel length as in photos right back at the start of this post and have the central grease nipple on the top surface, unlike the later sealed units.

Like Steve, I'll await my David Manners ones to check them out.

Regards,

Dave

Post by **Heuer** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:20 am

I see XK's Unlimted are now selling their own manufactured TRE's "From the correct gold colour to the proper range of motion and clear boots these are the correct tie rod ends for all S1/2 E-Types". #CO-25447 $46.25/pair

johnben · Post by **johnben** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:34 pm

Received an email from SNG Barratt yesterday and this was followed up today by a more detailed explanation of their product. Obviously it deserves a wider audience so here it is.

John
Ser 1 2 + 2

"Dear Mr Bennett,
Further to my email below of yesterday, we have had the chance to do a bit of measuring and fitting to our car to investigate further and can advise as follows. Some of this you may well already be aware from the forum but I will outline our position and findings so all is clear.

1. Our E-Type is fitted with SNG Barratt specification GAZ dampers which have a maximum extended length of 390mm (eye to eye ? off the car) and SNG Barratt TRE. Once fitted to the car and with the car raised and the dampers at full extension the TRE do not neck.

2. We also sell the BOGE and KONI versions of the same dampers that have a maximum extended length of 400mm (eye to eye ? off the car). We fitted these to our car yesterday using the same SNG Barratt TRE and with the car raised and the dampers at full extension the TRE do not neck.

We take on board your points with regards to the angles of different TRE that are available in the market vs the measurements taken from an old original but, taking the two points made above, we consider that our stock is fit for purpose.

With regards to the other TRE available on the market I would advise that, before SNG Barratt produced the TRE that we sell now, the only ones available were a non E-Type specific TRE that was more suited to XJ rather than E-Type. I would therefore speculate that this is what you have been sold but since this was not from us I cannot be sure. I would also point out that this type of TRE is still widely sold for E-Type application and would speculate that this is for one reason only ? because its cheaper.

I cant really advise further on the other damper lengths mentioned in the forum but I would say that some do seem very long. It is possibly worth mentioning that the E-Type series 3 damper is very similar to that of the S1 but has a longer extended length so possibly this could be the issue ? again this is a guess since the measurements of what we offer are as above. As a final point ? another customer who is also interested in this and also has a Series 1 2+2 car has raised the possibility that the steering area may differ slightly on the 2+2 vs the FHC/DHC variants of the car. His reasoning for this is that the 2+2 has a different steering rack mounting listed in the Jaguar parts book vs the other cars and is speculating that this could make a difference to the angles further down the line. There is only one steering rack mounting currently available and we have no record or recollection of any other being available. However, we will put some time into researching what the difference was on the 2+2 mounting and report back if we make any progress.

Happy to get feedback from you on this or if you have any further questions or something you would like me to look at ? please do not hesitate to drop me a line.

Best Regards

Julian Barratt
Managing Director
SNG Barratt Group"

Post by **mgcjag** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:19 pm

Hi All.......just recieved the David Manners tre,s....they are not 125deg ......they are 115..and look exactly the same as the ones from SNG......called Manners for a returns form and will be posting back........Steve

44DHR · Post by **44DHR** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:37 pm

Ok, now you've got me going Steve and Heuer !!

I was with the guys from XKs Unlimited last month on their stand at Laguna Seca for the Rolex Monterey Motorsports Reunion and their Track Rod Ends would have been ideal to pop in my luggage to bring back.

I have just asked Pete and Armando there on some shipping options to send some to the UK and we can check their parts out.

regards,

Dave

johnben · Post by **johnben** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:28 am

mgcjag wrote:Hi All.......just recieved the David Manners tre,s....they are not 125deg ......they are 115..and look exactly the same as the ones from SNG......called Manners for a returns form and will be posting back........Steve

Hi Steve

How frustrating, as you know I went through this process 3 times and ending up putting the old one's back in. I am sure like many I was awaiting your confirmation before ordering a set. So other than what is on offer from SNG or the possibility that we can obtain the correct ones from the USA we are no further forward.
Regarding the SNG pairing of the GAZ dampers with their own TRE's this would seem a safe bet backed up by their managing director and I am sure many will go for it.
I am probably pig headed but if the ones from the States open at the correct angle then I will pay the extra to get them. I still think my car is a beautifully designed sophisticated sports car and not a tractor and deserves replacements parts that match the original.
What we really need if the TRE's from the States meet expectations and our UK suppliers won't stock them, is for perhaps the E Type Club Shop, JEC or an entrepreneur to step up to the plate.
I think we need to collectively hold our nerve.

John Ser 1 2+2

Post by **mgcjag** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:47 am

Hi All........So where are we .........If u have a binding problem u can stop it as the above posts with parts currently available......I have done this but still want to persue the problem. Have mailed Dick Maury at Coventry west in the US........he ifentified the 125 deg tre a while age.......asked the source......waiting reply..........will be taking my 2+2 to SNG so we can take some measuements and see if there is just a problem with 2+2...........please help if u have an ots or fhc that binds please let me know....because so far only 2+2 owners have said they have a problem..(still need to find out why there is a specific part no for the steering rack mount on the 2+2)......finally the Jaguar spares day is comming up so a good oppertinity to look at all the suppliers Tre,s.........PS mailed Xk unlimited for there Tre angle but somehow I think they are the same as the Manners and Sng ones....regards Steve

44DHR · Post by **44DHR** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:53 am

Steve,

I have heard back from Pete at XKs Unlimited in the USA and now got a shipping charge as I intend to order a couple of sets of their TREs. However before I confirm my order I will send him some example photos and ask Pete to confirm the angle of opening of their product. I have directed him to this forum link to see the extent this TRE issue has generated, but I did recieve this comment from him with my quote last night :-

"The proper angle of the steering tie rod end pins has been addressed with our CO-25447. We are finding that some customers that report installation difficulties are usually trying to attach the tie rod while the suspension is drooped or hanging down. The suspension should be loaded when installing the tie rod pins in the steering arms."

I will keep you informed.

regards,

Dave

Post by **mgcjag** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:02 pm

Just heard from Dick Maury at Coventry West USA......he said he has the 125 deg at $39 each......anyone have a contact out there that can get the angle checked out before we purchase....after all David Manners said theirs were 125s and they are not......Also Had reply from XKUnlimited said they dont know the angle but are aware of the problem and these will solve it..........will wait for Dave in prior post to see if his contact can check angle.....Regards Steve

44DHR · Post by **44DHR** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:29 pm

Steve,

This is the link to Coventry West USA which shows they understand the issue.

http://etypejaguar.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... -rod-ends/

Please note the reference to XKs Unlimited inability to help, but this post was in July 2011 before they had developed their own. I have sent the photos of the angles from page one of this thread to Pete at XKs Unlimited tonight and await their comments.

p.s. I got my TREs from David Manners today - and yes they have the same part number of MO513R on them as the SNG Barratt supply, so no improvement on those ones - although they did not charge me the amount I was expecting as they reduced the postal charge.

regards,

Dave

44DHR · Post by **44DHR** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:43 am

Latest update :-

I sent several colour photos and the comparative drawing of angles from page 1 of this post and directed them to this topic - which I see has now been viewed over 3,800 times within the E type community - as it is obviously an area of interest and concern. I asked for confirmation of the maximum angle of the taper pin in the socket for the parts that they specified to have manufactured and received the following reply :-

"I spoke to our product development manager. He said he produced the specs for the tie rods from the original early units a while ago. He couldn?t recall the exact amount of degrees, but they are the same Jaguar used on the Ser I E-type. We use the same ones in our restoration shop with no issues. I trust they will satisfy your needs."

This reply does not really fully answer the question and ironically I don't have an issue with my Track Rod Ends, but this points towards the common posts about parts suppliers. As Johnben said - our beautiful cars deserve replacement parts that match the original - and increasingly this does not appear the case as Simon and I found out when we recently ordered our TREs in the UK on the basis of the information supplied.

I usually buy my parts from one of the big UK names and I appreciate that they come on the forum and are willing to get involved and explain the use of their parts. This is further more frustrating when a suppliers website, (there are some great ones out there - especially XKs Unlimited's), or parts catalogue is so detailed - especially from a certain UK supplier - until you order the parts and get a level of service that does not fully match that initial impression.

Until I get a clear response to my fairly simple question from XKs Unlimited or see some proof, in the words of a certain TV programme in the UK, "Gentlemen - I'm out".

regards,

Dave

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:10 am

From memory, the 125-degree reference angle was taken from a worn pair of ball joints. By the time you get down to the last degree or two it is possible suppliers are working to OEM drawings and supplying the trade a correct-spec part designed to be used with OEM dampers, even if they are slightly less angulated than the used reference TREs.

Ditto damper extension. Depending on design and parts condition, the last few millimetres of centre-to-centre extension under load could be due to compliance of different or deteriorated end bushings, or compression of a rebound stop etc. No Jag supplier makes their own TREs, they commission them from one of a finite number of factories. I am certain there are clear differences between saloon and E-type parts, but not yet convinced about ultimate angle to be expected from stiff new parts not yet broken in, versus well-used parts, original or aftermarket.

This wouldn't be the first time suppliers get slammed for quality issue that turns out not to be their fault, although supplying saloon parts for an E-type would be.

If Coventry West parts turn out OK (and I've used them successfully in the past) I think we need to take stock - excuse pun.

Pete

Post by **mgcjag** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:10 pm

Hi All........Dave just to pick up on what Xk unlimited said.....suspension must be compressed to fit the tre,s........I have looked in the Jaguar manual and this is incorrect on page j.10 for removing lower wishbone the steps are jack car in center of picture frame untill wheels clear the floor and support...etc..then drift out tre..reverse procedure to refit......if xk,s tre,s need the suspension compressed to fit then something is wrong.......Steve

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The 'E' Type Forum

Track rod ends despair.

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