3.8 vs 4.2, the perennial discussion?

[andrewh]

I have to say, that I have a particular like for the series one 3.8 E types. The alloy dash, the early bucket seats , and the first of breed make the cars very special to me. However, I struggled like heck with my moss box, and I am used to driving non syncromesh vehicles, and getting into my roadster, which was a flat floor, was very very tricky. Once I was in the car, driving it was hard work as the bulkhead was not cut out behind the seat as well. So , it seems to me that the 4.2 car addressed all of these issues, and some more as well such as gearbox. Everyone tells me that the 4.2 is the best. But I still love the look of the 3.8!!! What do you all think, I would be very interested to hear your views.

[Heuer]

The S1 E-Type was 'work in progress' from the day it was launched. Jaguar set about the various owner complaints - seats, leg room, gearbox, dynamo, oil consumption, brakes, no arm rests, reflective dash, flappy bonnet etc etc and by 1965 had released the 4.2 which addressed the issues. Car still looked the same (later 3.8's had an all black dash) but it was a much more complete offering. As you found out owning the early models is charming but pretty futile if you want extended use of the car. The 3.8 engine is certainly sweeter and free revving but a well built 4.2 is probably quicker on the road because of the extra torque. The 4.2 is what Jaguar should have released in the first place but financial constraints stopped them.

So if you want a Sunday morning run-about or concours entrant the 3.8 is ideal. If you want to go touring (and we do 3,000 miles a year with ours) or use the car regularly the 4.2 is top dog.

[MarkE]

It all depends what you define as ?best?. No E type, be it a 3.8, a 4.2 or a 5.3 is going to be as easy and effortless to drive as a modern car, but perhaps that?s not what it?s about for some folks. There?s no doubt that a S3 is ?better? than a S2, a S2 better than a S1 etc. in all the dynamic characteristics of the car. So by David?s argument of drivability, only the S3 should be considered.

But if you bring looks into it, then I think that most would agree that the S1 is the prettiest or purest looking E Type, so the 4.2 S1 is a compromise between usability and looks. Most E Type owners would also agree that the 3.8, and especially the early 3.8, is the prettiest of them all.

So surely it?s all about trading off degrees of compromise of usability vs. degrees of compromise in the looks department? To consign the 3.8 to being a static display or a painful weekend car is daft. Many XK 120, 140 and 150 owners use their cars regularly and cover a lot more that 3000 miles a year, as do many Morgan , TR3 and Austin Healey drivers. Those cars make the 3.8 E Type feel like a comfy sofa by comparison!

I agree with you Andrew that the 3.8 looks the best, but there?s no doubt that if you?re of normal stature like me (about 6ft 5 inches with size 12 feet) then a flat floor straight-back early 3.8 is out of the question. But those of a more dwarfish size, perhaps under 6 foot, don't seem to have a problem. Perhaps the not-so-early 3.8 is the best E Type? And you can always fit the S2 / S3 recliners into a 3.8.

As for the Moss box, they can be very usable if built properly, and that 1st gear straight-cut sound is pure Jaguar.

[Heuer]

"Perhaps the not-so-early 3.8 is the best E Type? And you can always fit the S2 / S3 recliners into a 3.8."

But there is the rub Mark. E-Types continue to evolve and people make improvements just like Jaguar did. We add better brakes, Koni shocks, wider wheels, modern rubber, electronic ignition, 5 speed box, high ratio rear axle, smaller steering wheel, poly bushes etc etc. All things you can do with a flat floor 3.8 or a late 4.2 so there is no 'better' model, just a snap shot of where your own car is now. A pure original early S1 is of its time and their owners adore them for the period feel and look. The 4.2 was a step change in usability making it a viable proposition for tangling with modern traffic. It is most instructive to read Phillip Porters Definitive E-Type book which lists 196 changes to the 3.8 E-Type in production whilst the S1 4.2 had less than half that number and many of those were to do with changing legislation and the 2+2.

It begs the question - what is an original E-Type? Many of our cars are just caricatures of what rolled out of Brown's Lane. Mine especially: 850709 now has 4.2 engine, 5 speed box, 2.88 diff, Kenlowe, CMS radiator, S3 discs, Zeus calipers, later servo, S3 anti roll bar, 4.2 seats, late 3.8 centre console, electronic fuel pump, alternator, Borrani wheels, updated instruments etc. Still has the original beech steering wheel and 5,500 red line tach though!
:smoke:

[adam]

Hi, I own a 3.8 not a flat floor, but one with footwells and dished bulkhead to allow more legroom. The only upgrades it has are coopercraft front brakes but still with bellows servo and a 123 distributor. The 3.8 to me is the purest looking of all the e types. The alloy dashboard and toggle switches just draws your eye and the slim bucket seats look great to me, very comfortable. I'm still running the original cooling system even down to the single fan blade, i got stuck in roadworks and heavy traffic almost stationary for 20 mins coming back from Goodwood breakfast club yesterday no problems. It took a little while to get used to the moss box, but i like the sound of the straight cut 1st gear, so vintage. Dynamo charging system works if in good fettle, the oil consumption shoudnt be a problem as all engines will by now have been upgraded to a modern piston ring sets. Driving my e type all ways puts a smile on face. Up the 3.8s, to me the best, The E TYPE, MOST BEAUTIFUL CAR EVER MADE. The 3.8s are very nice really.

[MarkE]

Always a great topic, and never an agreed outcome!

Striving to make an E Type (or any other classic) as good as it can be using modern ?upgrade? bits, really doesn?t do it for me. The way Jaguar upgraded an E Type was to bring out the XJS?and then onto an XK. Obviously, the XJS and XK aren?t E Types, but they are a darned sight better car in many respects. But when does an E Type become not an E Type? Is it just the shape? In which case, is a Challenger kit an E type?

I really don?t think that the ?living with modern traffic? argument works for an E Type either. It?s performance, handling and brakes in standard form are way better that a Land Rover Discovery, and they seem to cope just fine.

I?m sure that there are many Es on the road that are caricatures of the original car, each of them individual, to their owner?s taste, but try selling one. Most classic car nuts want originality, maybe with an upgrade or two to overcome original design flaws where they exist.

Looking around the various shows and Jag events and talking with the owners, most E Types are largely original and provide the authentic E Type experience. If an owner doesn?t want that experience, again, does it just come down to the shape of the car and / or the pose factor? It can?t be for the modern high performance or handling, because an E type just can?t give that on the road, no matter how upgraded. It?s too darned heavy! For ?10k you can buy a really good standard 10 year old TVR Griffith, which will run rings around an fully upgraded road E Type in all performance respects?fast or cruising.

I think that the biggest problem facing the E Type in current times it that it was so far ahead of it?s time in the 60s. It was streets ahead of its contemporaries (apart from products from Lotus of course!) from England, Germany, USA and even Italy. That makes it closer to a modern car than, for example, a Healey, so the temptation is to try and make it as good as a modern car, and it will never get there. The weight, the ventilation, the basic engine and suspension design will always hold it back. The lack of stability control, ABS, and all the other ?insulating? bits would also show it up.

If it was a large step change behind moderns, such as an XK120, or an MGTC, or any pre-war car, perhaps originality would count for more. They are appreciated more for their idiosyncratic ways, and a totally different approach to driving. This provides something that is completely different to driving a modern Eurobox, and is in itself a very rewarding experience.

I believe that a well sorted and largely original E type provides sufficient contrast to the moderns, and in a way that is thoroughly involving, exciting and at times, hard work?..and even maybe a little scarry. Everthing that my modern XK isn't. It is partially that contrast, combined with it?s looks and soundtrack, that for me is what an E Type is all about.

Maybe all the upgrade stuff dulls that contrast a little? Or a lot?

[Heuer]

"I?m sure that there are many Es on the road that are caricatures of the original car, each of them individual, to their owner?s taste, but try selling one. Most classic car nuts want originality, maybe with an upgrade or two to overcome original design flaws where they exist."

Hmmmm - we maybe need to re-calibrate! : http://tinyurl.com/myej3r

[andrewh]

Wow! what a wealth of experience and views. I sort of knew the answer for me to the question before I posed it but wanted to stimulate just the sort of response that we are fortunate to have received. I buy classic cars for the original experience, warts and all. I realise, as do most who have replied, that an early 3.8 E is a slightly flawed motor car if one compares it to the later models. I own a very early Range Rover by way of example and by 1975, five years into production they were really very much better. Power steering, better sound insulation, and trim etc etc. But you know, there is nothing quite like driving the early car. Its such a great journey back in time. I even drive mine with contact breaker ignition and early plastic trim, because for me thats the real deal. Back to the E. It was a sensation when it was launched and is still quite a phenomenal motor car with all its idiosyncracies. Arguably its just those odd things that make the E Type such an icon. I totally agree that the ealy straight cut first gear is such a link to the past it rather ably illustrated just what a phenomenan the E was when it came out. 150 mph from a car most other cars could barely achieve 80 mph. It links the car with the previous era of engineering and reminds one just what an advance it really was if the only thing one can really complain about was the box! I personally think that 3.8's should be worth considerably more than 4.2's and is the purest and most iconic of the lot. Something about the 4.2 sterilises the experience and whilst they are a superb car and I would love one, and may buy one, I think I would always feel unfaithful to the real deal. The 3.8!

As for upgrades, well, its reasonable enough and I am quite sure that the cars drive wonderfully, but if I want a modernised drive, I will take an XKR

[Heuer]

Yes but upgrades do not necessarily 'modernise' the car as most of the changes were available in period. My car has standard suspension, steering, wheel width and 185 tyres so handles as it did when made. The engine now produces a tad more power than Jaguar promised (but never delivered) and the high ratio rear axle was known as the 'Le Mans' diff in period. ZF made a 5 speed box to fit the car and my exhaust is off a Lightweight. Given the will and a week of my time I could put it back to the way it left the factory.

The E-Type does seem to be an enigma in the world of classic cars. Nicely restored, original spec, matching number cars languish on eBay and forecourts at about ?60,000 yet modified cars as built by Eagle, JD Classics and E-Type UK can fetch double or triple that. I suppose an original car is a known quantity with a discernible market value whereas upgraded ones are an unknown quantity yet highly sought after. You could argue with the prices asked but it has taken me 10 years and many thousands of pounds to get my car performing and being what I want. When you buy an Eagle et al you are shortcutting that process and buying these guys experience so you can hit the start button and start smiling.

So whilst I could put my car back to totally original I have no desire to do so because it would not then be 'fit for purpose' (my purpose that is) and, it seems, doing so would reduce its value.

[andrewh]

Well fair enough. My guiding principle with all things classic is "who am I to impose my views" on someone else. I love them all and speaking as someone currently without an E, having owned 5 over the years, I feel a big part of me is missing. I also talk as a bit of a fraud about the 4.2 cos as yet I have never even driven one...oops! My opinion is more related to the look of the early cars, marginally overcoming any dynamic shortcomings. By the way, my Kelsey hayes brakes on the 3.8 were really very very good, I was never really aware of what the fuss was all about if they are set up well?

[Heuer]

The Kelsey Hayes brake servo has always had bad press when in fact it was the calipers that were the problem. A well set up KH unit is just as good as the later servo when operating four-pot Zeus calipers. There are only three physical differences between the 3.8 and S1 4.2 - seats, alloy centre console/dash and the badge on the boot lid. The alloy dash disappeared after three years.

[Heuer]

If you really want the ultimate original 3.8 E-Type then Eagle have a real time warp one for sale: http://www.eaglegb.com/etypes/21-jaguar ... -sale.html

Doubt you will seen another like it but unfortunately it is not priced.

[andrewh]

I had seen that but its left hand drive which would be a no for me sadly. Thanks though. The only other problem is the bank manager who seems less than accomodative recently.cant think why!

[Heuer]

No RHD!

[MarkE]

Well, David, what a rattling good discussion!

All modified cars are not equal.

I think that we should look at 'improved' cars in a couple of categories. In the first, there are companies like Eagle and JD who offer to provide ?the ultimate E type? for a particular market. That market consists of a large number of very wealthy customers who are looking for another toy to add to their collection, and after a thousand miles or so, the new toy get consigned to the air conditioned centrally heated 16th century barn, along with the DB5, Dino, Enzo, Bentley and whatever else the society (or football) magazines have elected to be the ?must have? car of the year. Have you noticed how many Eagle E Types Eagle sell with a very, very low milage?

These owners are not enthusiasts, and the old classics so modified provide something that is just about tolerable (for them) to drive. They are undoubtedly priced to market. Just add up the cost of the modifications you can imagine fitting to an E type, and compared with the ?120k price tag they don?t represent a large proportion. Retrofitting components is an expensive business, but building in modification during restoration isn?t. And when you start off with a rust free car, which is Eagle?s usual route, the final product must provide a very good margin.

I?m sure that the end result is a superb car. They seem to have thought through the ?upgrades? end to end, and build in suspension compliance with the sticky tyres, modified engines with the right gearbox and diff ratios. And of course, finish it all off with beautifully re-trimmed cut down XJS seats and a fairly discrete A/C system. For some this must be the ultimate E type.

But rather than comparing an eBay sale of an original car to an Eagle modified one, why not compare a home modified car for sale on eBay to an Eagle original restoration? I think that the same if not greater differences will be seen, but the other way around!

Your modifications, David, have been applied after a great deal of research, and with considerable knowledge of the car. Many modifications that are made don?t seem to have been completed with such an end to end view, and this is the opposite end of the spectrum to the Eagle product.

I saw one at a Jaguar meeting a couple of years ago which fell into this category. Standard engine with a set of triple webers and big bore exhaust, running like a tractor. Huge wheels and tyres with the rear arches pulled out slightly to accommodate them. Unfortunately, one had been pulled a bit more than the other, so it looked like it had been in an accident. Recaro seats that looked like they?d come from a Capri, with centre console and door cards to match. Polybushed everything, and rock hard suspension that I couldn?t move up or down. Chromed bits under the bonnet, and lots of tasteless bits and pieces in the cabin?oh, and speakers everywhere. The obligatory aftermarket electric windows and central locking were of course fitted.

It did have a new wiring job done, but the owner thought that a vast array of fuses and relays was a much better idea than the original setup, and the car proudly displayed them under the bonnet.

The owner was absolutely chuffed to bits with his car, and it had taken him 15 years to develop it to this stage. Each to their own of course, but to me it looked like a kit car that had gone wrong, and I?m certain it would have driven like an absolute dog.

For the owner, it was the ultimate E type, and there?s the one big issue for Classic cars in general. I doubt if his view was shared by anybody else at the meeting.

They were a clever lot in Jaguar in the 1950s and 1960s, and for many, they got it right. Have a car to standard specification, and you have it as right as a very smart team of guys had designed it. Try to improve the car, and there is a risk, and in the case of the car I saw, a certainty, that you?ll undo some of what the original design team set out to do. Of course, the original design had to be a compromise between a road sports car, a comfortable cruiser, a car to go to work in every day, and maybe even a car to go shopping in?they do have a boot after all. Modifications can undoubtedly alter that compromise in favour of the owner?s requirements, but they have to be done very carefully to not upset the dynamic and aesthetic balance of the car.

Not sure that I agree with Andrew?s view that the 3.8 should be worth a lot more that the others, although that certainly was the case 10 or 15 years ago. It certainly provides the link to the XK series via the engine and box, but little else. It is a stunning car though, and isn?t just a trailer queen?.which is where this discussion started out! The S3 seemed to have a high period as well, but it certainly is the time of the S1 4.2. Modified E Types also seem to be currently ?acceptable?. Things change pretty quickly though in the classic car world.

[adam]

Hi, someone gave me some great advise about e types, get yourself an unmodded car. Drive for a year then deicide if needs anything changing. For me i like the feel of the way the car connects when driven hard, feeding back through its delicate thin steering wheel. I think some of the blame for people thinking they need to upgrade an e type lies with some classic car mags waxing lyrical about how great these cars are when they test them. For me i know its not perfect but thats the appeal, ive had modern sportscars but to me nothing compares to a country road and an e type scratching on the edge in standard form.

[andrewh]

My assertion that the 3.8's should be worth the most was really based on a basic premise, which sort of holds up quite well generally, that the cars to buy in any range of collectables are the very first, or the very last or important cars. And of course that if one wants to distill the rarity down even more, there were really very very few genuine RHD 3.8's. Anyway, we werent really talking about value and its largely subjective. I would settle for any E Type right now, and be delighted to own once more , one of these simply stunning icons. Maybe, I should drive a 4.2 series one and see how it compares with the 3.8 I had.

[Heuer]

Going back to where this discussion started I really think you should have a go in a 4.2. Once you are out of first gear the driving experience is pretty much the same.

I have been seriously considering buying that red 3.8 OTS from Eagle - it checks all the boxes in terms of originality (the paint especially) and would be a joy to own. But .....

[HarryW]

Re the red OTS, a stunner it certainly is. The 'but' for me, were I interested in a 3.8 would be this - do you buy such a rarity and run it as an everyday driver, or treasure it as an original, not to be repeated work of art maintaining its possibly unique condition. In this respect it poses quite a different dilemma to say running Jenks' old car, which is also unique.
Of course, there is also the issue of the price - if the car leaves Eagle speechless, the asking price will doubtless leave prospective buyers speechless too
And I hope the tyres at least aren't original

[MarkE]

It would be quite a dilemma owning that 3.8, and will probably end up as the 3.8 trailer queen. But maybe rightly so in this case; there can be very few like this left.

To a lesser extent, I have a similar quandary with my XJR-s 6 litre. With 7700 miles on the clock, I feel guilty when I drive it, and guilty looking at it sat in the garage. It?s a shame that the Jag museum is going through hard times currently, as these sort of cars deserve to be in a public space for all to enjoy and of course, as perfect specimens of originality for reference.

As for the price of the 3.8, I dread to think. But if a perfect restored car from Eagle is ?100k - ?140k ish?..maybe add 50%...maybe a lot more. One thing?s for sure?she won?t be getting the Eagle ?ultimate E Type? treatment?.she?s already there.