Restart when engine very hot

Talk about the E-Type Series 1

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Vonkie
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#1 Restart when engine very hot

Post by Vonkie » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:09 am

Gradually getting little issues ironed out, and steadily seeing her reliability improve, which is wonderful. My charging/discharging woes have been greatly assisted with the smaller pulley (60mm) on the Dynalite system and correct sized fanbelt (which was very difficult to obtain for the smaller pulley). (See the post about Dynalite charging woes)

I am still overnighting her on c-Tek, although she seems to do okay without. Driving almost daily, with little drives during the week and big drives weekends when possible.

There's a perennial issue that I would not mind some clever thoughts on:

Ever since I got her, she has been giving different kinds of starting problems. Some have been addressed with the smaller pulley on the Dynalite helping with discharge on idle. A new solenoid also seems to have helped quite a bit. When the engine is warm or cold, she seems to do fine.

However, even with the new solenoid, and even if the battery is fully charged (whether after c-Tek or after lots of revving), there is a syndrome that I have by now got to know well: after driving anything more than, say, 15 miles or so, if the engine gets hot enough, an attempt to restart immediately after switch-off is met with a sad whoop from the starter as if the battery is really struggling and the starter will not turn. This may happen once or twice. Usually, if one waits a minute or so, turns on ignition, waits 5 seconds or so, and then gives a good blast on the start button, she will get turning and firing on the third attempt. She has to date not failed to start when playing this game.

Today I drove her 85 miles or so to breakfast. It was a hot day. Temperature gauge hardly ever went over about 80. Stopped for 35 minutes for breakfast and on start up got the dreaded whoop. Waited 30 seconds, ignition on, wait, start - no problem. This is the first time she's played this game so long after stopping.

It's clear this is something that happens when the engine is very hot. It does not happen after a short drive, nor after a long drive if the engine has cooled down for a long time. And it never seems to be bad enough to make her fail completely to start up (i.e. usually the third attempt works), but it of course remains disconcerting.

She has a Dynalite with a small (60mm) pulley, a Kenlowe fan, and currently manages to stay under 90 degrees temperature all the time, usually around 70 to 80, even when the outside temperature is very hot and she needs to idle a lot in heavy traffic.

Thoughts would be very welcome indeed.

(Lately, since running well, she has done some 652 miles on 100 litres, i.e. 4,34 miles per litre, or 19,7 miles per gallon, but most of this was open road stuff (although there has been heavy traffic too).)
Frank
1963 3.8 FHC

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mgcjag
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#2 Re: Restart when engine very hot

Post by mgcjag » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:50 am

Hi Frank...this could be of interest viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6885 Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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Vonkie
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#3 Re: Restart when engine very hot

Post by Vonkie » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:36 am

Thanks Steve

Interesting, and a possible option, but I am in principle loath to address this through introducing further switches, especially since relays appear to be prone to being defective (the current crop of Lucas repros seem really bad - for my fan relay I have now relented in favour of a modern Hella unit after successive failures of Lucas units).

I note from a 2016 post from cactusman that there's a respectable theory blaming the repro rotor arms if brass and riveted rather than red and unriveted - I have not had mine looked at for this feature. Is it worth checking if I have the riveted brass version and replacing it with a red one if I do?

Since everything else is working so well now (hold thumbs), I am always reluctant to introduce new problems!
Frank
1963 3.8 FHC

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#4 Re: Restart when engine very hot

Post by mgcjag » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:42 am

Hi Frank...i didnt point you to the link just to do an upgrade...you obviously have a problem with a hot start...and to me what you describe sounds electrical....not enough current getting to the starter motor to spin it enough...so it could be the switch contacts......either bypass your switch and starter button to test but the upgrade takes the high current away from the switches and puts it through a modern reliable relay......if you go with a red rotor arm at least as a spare then there are fake red ons around.....get one from the Distributor Doctor..... Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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chrisfell
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#5 Re: Restart when engine very hot

Post by chrisfell » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:10 am

Do you have an original starter? Has it been restored recently?
Your symptons can be caused by very worn brushes.
If your starter is old and hasnt had replacement brushes for a while......
Chris '67 S1 2+2

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#6 Re: Restart when engine very hot

Post by christopher storey » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:51 am

This is most assuredly nothing to do with the rotor arm : that problem is a separate issue where the engine will turn over ad infinitum but there is no spark . I agree that it has to be connected with the starter motor and/or its circuitry . Assuming it is a M45G pre-engaged starter, then the first things I would look at would be the earth straps to the engine and the contacts for those at both ends ; then the live contacts for cleanliness and lack of corrosion . If that produces no improvement, then (after a check that the motor is correctly aligned/spacered/tightened ) I would check the starter motor internals : brushes as already stated - freedom of the sliding solenoid actuated pinion - cleanliness of the contact which starts the shaft running at the end of the pinions travel

I do wonder whether the "whoop" suggests that the roller clutch (which makes the armature turn the pinion once it is engaged with the ring gear) is slipping

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#7 Re: Restart when engine very hot

Post by Vonkie » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:47 pm

Thanks guys. And apologies for not looking more carefully at Steve’s link.

Thanks for disabusing my mind of the rotor-arm angle.

It's not a pre-engaged starter - it is still the inertia Bendix unit. So far, I have resisted replacing it with a Hi-Torque pre-engaged unit.

Seems checking out bushes / brushes is a priority. I don't know whether the fact that the retaining spring has failed and been replaced on quite a few occasions could have anything to do with anything?

As is no doubt apparent, I am not skilled or knowledgeable in the art of motor mechanic tinkering, and do not attend to the jobs myself. I am however very interested in learning to get to know my car better and better, and tapping into the combined wisdom of this forum when having her issues attended to by others.
Last edited by Vonkie on Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Frank
1963 3.8 FHC

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#8 Re: Restart when engine very hot

Post by christopher storey » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:23 pm

Frank : apologies, I had not read closely enough and thought it was a 4.2 . On a bendix, the commonest cause of failure to engage is dirt on the pinion or the shaft . It is surprising how little of this is needed to prevent the pinion travelling right up the shaft against the spring pressure , and of course that is exacerbated if for any reason, such as dirty commutator or worn brushes , the shaft is not spinning at its design speed. I should pull the starter off and give it a thorough cleanup with a degreasant ,checking commutator and brushes at the same time

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Vonkie
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#9 Re: Restart when engine very hot

Post by Vonkie » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:11 pm

Thanks Chris

Yes, that seems to be more or less the wisdom in the maintenance section in the Service Manual at P31 - P36. Let us see!
Frank
1963 3.8 FHC

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#10 Restart....

Post by Vonkie » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:57 pm

Well, after much lovely driving - 1131 miles in a month at exactly 21 miles per gallon (kid you not, although to be fair mainly at 70-80 mph on open roads) - I can now change the topic of this post by removing the qualifying words "when engine very hot". Clearly the starter or the electrics around it now need serious attention. Along with some of the little "while we are at it" items!

I shall report back anon.

It's been only 5 days, but the withdrawal symptoms are severe, especially as we had beautiful weather both Sat and Sunday morning after 3 days of solid rain.

Anyway. I signed up for this. The V8 XF is not complaining. Maybe I will revert to sanity for a while. Maybe.
Frank
1963 3.8 FHC

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Vonkie
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#11 Some help with my dilemma

Post by Vonkie » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:16 pm

Apologies, seems I'm conducting a serial monologue here.

Ok. Isolator on battery earth had worked loose, causing too much resistance in starter. Cables being replaced.

Now I have a dilemma and am not sure where to go on this. Please bear in mind that I do none of this myself and all is done at distance.

A while back, when I had charging problems and perennial starter problems, a Powerlite High Torque starter was procured for me, but its pinion could not reach the flywheel, and, with the Dynalite pulley made smaller and the relevant fanbelt procured, and the solenoid replaced, all was going swimmingly with the Lucas starter until the hot start problem manifested again and then became a start problem.

Now, I have a parallel process going. The High Torque unit now fits as the starter mounting flange was moved some 8mm, and, although this will be verified fully, it seems the meshing with the flywheel is fine. The cables to the starter have been replaced. The High Torque unit was installed, and I've seen videos of perfect start-ups after a 15 mile trip and immediately after switch off.

Meanwhile, the Lucas unit is being tested thoroughly. New brushes, and full workshop testing.

For sentimental reasons, my current instructions are to test both units in situ, and in circumstances after 15 mile trips when reasonably hot on immediate switch-off, to see if both end up working now, and if so, and if the Lucas unit is in good nick, with new brushes, clean bushes, clean commutator, and correct functioning springs and drive and pinion looking good, then stay with the Lucas for now. Some of the early issues with the Lucas have, however, included the restraining spring failing (twice), so this appears to be some sort of weakness.

Now, assume both starters work fine on the hot start scenario. Am I then silly stubbornly to retain the Lucas system and not simply to close my eyes (and ears) and go for the High Torque unit? After all, if nothing else, it is a new unit. The likelihood that I shall improve efficiency and reduce starting issues (if only because it draws much less power than the Lucas and does not have the same spring failing tendencies) is probably to be assessed as high.

My preference is for the original technology, where reasonably possible. I for example insisted on having her own Moss gearbox restored and reinstalled, and the five speed conversion removed, and this was a wonderful decision. I already have the following modifications: Kenlowe fan, Dynalite alternator, extra front brake callipers, extra fuel filter, seatbelts (albeit static), Hella fan relay instead of Lucas. The High Torque starter would modify from an inertia Bendix system to pre-engaged.

I like to go for long drives, and to drive her often. She is not a garage queen. It is therefore important to improve her reliability as much as possible.

Of course, this may all become academic if the Lucas unit underperforms despite the attention, but my dilemma arises if it does not do so quite clearly (at first).

I'll keep a grateful eye open for thoughts and views.
Frank
1963 3.8 FHC

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jagwit
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#12 Re: Restart when engine very hot

Post by jagwit » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:28 am

I'll break your monologue... :bigrin:

My approach to my classics is this:
Modify freely..... as long as its reversible. The 5-speed box that was in your car was a good example.

In your case, you clearly enjoy driving the car, therefore, reliability should be top priority. So, why not go with the NEW, RELIABLE reduction gear starter if it will "guarantee" a trouble free start EVERY TIME? Keep the original in your box labelelled "E-type Original parts".

I advised the same to the gentleman whom I'm helping on his '65 4.2 E-type. This is why he now has a 123Ignitions distributor, proper alternator, modern radiator fan . (His car still has original starter but it clearly has no issues like yours.)

I started a business with a friend although I stepped out of it now. We rebuilt the air compressors for the air suspension system of Land Rover Discovery 3. We also had a test bench on which the rebuilt units was given a proper test before selling them. It was interesting (and disappointing) to find how many of the rebuilt pumps would perform excellently on the first cycle of operation but would start "fading" once the electrical motor had become heat soaked. He now has huge stash of failed rotors that require rewiring.
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

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Tango 401
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#13 Re: Restart when engine very hot

Post by Tango 401 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:57 pm

Hi Frank,

I have just cured a similar problem on my 1968 S Type - the ignition coil was breaking down once the engine was very hot. New coil has completely solved my hot starting problems.

Brian
Brian 1964 3.8 FHC (Modified)

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Vonkie
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#14 Sir Lucas resurrected

Post by Vonkie » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:18 pm

Got her back today. Went for the sentimental option (for now). Sir Lucas is back in.

With both cables replaced, the resistance has been reduced so that the starter circuit now loses 0.2 V instead of 2 V, and the tendency of the drive inside the Lucas starter to push back to make contact with the back has been addressed. New brushes also could not have hurt.

After a 24 mile trip, the immediate switch off on hotstart was perfect.

Let us see. If it starts playing up again, the High Torque back door is open.
Frank
1963 3.8 FHC

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