S1 & 420G similarity

Talk about the E-Type Series 1

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AussiE
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#1 S1 & 420G similarity

Post by AussiE » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:36 pm

Hi Everyone,
I am building/restoring a 63 roadster, it has had a very colourful life and is not all that original.
It is missing most mechanical parts and the dash etc. I have bought a complete 420G (MK X) with a rebuilt 4.2 to go in, before I pull it apart can anyone tell me which other parts I might be able to use in the E type? I’m on a budget, and building the car to drive and enjoy, I’m not fussed if it’s not concourse!
Many thanks in advance!

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christopher storey
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#2 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by christopher storey » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:20 am

The engine itself can be used , and ancillaries such as (probably ) the alternator . There is not much else which is common to the two cars , although there may be minor electrical parts suc as relays , flasher unit etc which can be re-used. It may be possible to use the waterpump but it is a bit unlikely because the drive pulleys may not align and, similarly, the outlet may not readily match up with the hose runs. The one important thing which , sadly, cannot be used is the induction manifold and carburetters - they sit too high for the E type even though superficially the arrangement looks the same

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PeterCrespin
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#3 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by PeterCrespin » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:03 pm

The instruments and possibly the centre dash panel recovered and modified. Had it been a 2+2 you could have used the transmission deprnding on auto/manual. Interior door furniture maybe?

You could use some brake, hub and differential parts but fewer for splined wheels.

The engine won’t fit without an E-type sump, and possibly water pump, which could cost as much as the parts car. The manifold and carbs won’t fit either as Chris said..
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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politeperson
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#4 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by politeperson » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:30 pm

To get maximum value out of you budget I would consider running it around on a pair of e type stromebergs with the secondary butterflys removed. A complete set up in the uk with manifold off a USA car is cheap at the moment.

A sump with pick up pipes and baffles will be the best part of a grand. Consider modifying the 420 sump by replacing the wings until the real item turns up.

Reuse the speedo and rev counter. The 420 speedo will work, just wont read up to 160 mph and is a warning light short.

Use a pair of MK1 Mazda MX5 seats.

Just those items alone will save you a few grand until the right bits become available.

I might sell you a pair of exhaust manifolds if you ask me nicely. E type ones point straight down.n The rest of the exhaust system is cheap enough in mild steel new.
James

L.J.K. Setright was right.
"You just cant beat a good E-type"

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mark10337
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#5 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by mark10337 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:31 pm

I'm not sure how much of the IRS can be used from the 420G on the eType, but it is also worth looking at.
-Mark

1969 Series 2 OTS, Regency Red
'Life's to short to drive a boring car'

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Geoff Allam
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#6 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by Geoff Allam » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:04 am

There will be lots of small fittings on the Mk 10 that will be suitable for your e type so hang on to it till you are finished. Bolts in-particular will be usefull ifyou are interested in originality. There will also be things like grommets, electrical fittings wires fuse boxes that may fit. Even the fuses are expensive i& you want original lucas ones. You will be amazed at what youcan use.
Geoff Allam
67 series1 ots under restoration
64 series 1 fhc burning lots of oil
53 xk 120 fhc sitting in garage waiting for attention

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#7 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by abowie » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:14 am

I assume that you aware that the inlet manifold is different and will not fit under the E Type bonnet?
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
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AussieEtype
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#8 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by AussieEtype » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:31 am

Arguable the Mk10/420G is now a rarer vehicle that similar aged E types (yes certainly not as valuable) - unless the 420G is a total wreck and not recoverable it would be a shame to "dismantle" a old classic for parts for another.
1971 Series 3 E-type OTS

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Jeremy66
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#9 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by Jeremy66 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:33 pm

Don’t write off the 420g carbs completely, the HD8 main body / butterfly assemblies are the same as e type, the dashpot & piston assembly (which must be kept as a pair as they are machined together) can be made to e type spec by milling the top of the dashpot down and re tapping the thread for the dashpot piston screw (I have the tap if you need to know the size) the piston assembly is the same length as the e type one so doesn’t need cutting shorter.

I don’t know if it would work but it may be possible to use your carbs modified together with the auto choke on an e type manifold.

Jeremy

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AussiE
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#10 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by AussiE » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:15 am

Thanks so much everyone for your replies -
every bit of info is a big help!
The Mk10 is the rustiest car I’ve ever seen so the parts are going to a good home.
There’s more useful bits than I thought!
I would like to further investigate the possibility of using the carbs on a correct manifold, or parts of them - the mechanic that is helping me works on Jag track cars and may be able to adapt creatively...
It will be used for hill climbs, moderate track days and spirited weekend drives.

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PeterCrespin
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#11 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by PeterCrespin » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:17 am

Dud info on the carbs I’m afraid.

From recent memory the main body castings are not the same, due to drillings for the fast idle levers and the opposite side adjuster screws being transposed, same as they are on most (all?) other Jag SU HD8 carbs drilled for manual choke but fitted with the AED device XJ) or the starting carb (MkX etc.)

This opposite handedness in turn affects the throttle shafts and levers which are different from the E, together with the expensive choke parts and one float bowl top wrong-handed.

Since the carbs and manifold are not worth much I would wait until the engine and bonnet are fitted. Then I would mount the carbs and measure how ousandsmuch you’d need to lower them to avoid fouling. Then I’d draw the main dimensions out in profile to see if machining a taper on one or both manifold faces would drop the carbs down far enough. If so,, fit the the whole kit and save 3-4 thousand.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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christopher storey
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#12 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by christopher storey » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:34 am

Peter : I don't think machining a taper on both inner and outer faces would work, as the studs would then be out of alignment, particularly on the carb end of the manifold which IIRC have longer studs. The E manifold, compared with that of the mark 10 / 420G , has a step down which lowers the carbs whilst preserving vertical alignment . The easiest way is to buy a new or s/h E manifold ( usually about £500 IIRC) , after which it might be possible to use the existing carbs with the hisser. Even then, I imagine the throttle linkage might be difficult

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Gfhug
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#13 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by Gfhug » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:40 am

AussiE why not ask Peter if he's got anything left:-
http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13469
On the grounds it might be the easiest way to get what you need :shrug:

Geoff
S2 FHC Light Blue

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#14 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by PeterCrespin » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:36 pm

christopher storey wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:34 am
Peter : I don't think machining a taper on both inner and outer faces would work, as the studs would then be out of alignment, particularly on the carb end of the manifold which IIRC have longer studs.


It does work, if you're desperate, but it ain't trivial and it needs creativity. Bob Wilkinson on Jag-Lovers did it to get some triple SUs under his Series 1 XJ6 bonnet, I believe. Not sure how he did the linkage.

I agree with every one of your points and it's a mod too far for my taste, if only that I'd tire of explaining it to all and sundry every time I popped the bonnet. But anything that might save five hundred quid is worth checking quickly IMO, which is why I suggested drawing it out first (the centerlines and angles). By trigonometry or sketches you could see what sort of angle would be needed to drop the carbs by the required distance below a straight edge across the cam covers to match E-type spec (which itself had generous clearance).

If it was, say, 8 degrees like the D-Type canted-engine Weber manifold (which uses an adapter plate to rearrange the head studs) I agree that would be too much for a single joint face and would probably leave the bottom of the tapered flange far too thin. But by splitting it to four degrees on two faces, or 3 + 3 and two degrees off the otherwise unusable carb flanges, maybe it's doable using shorter studs and tapered washers (or springs like the MkX/420G)? Shortening the tall bells would lessen the angle even more. Since he already has the low value parts and is on a budget, the risk-benefit would probably make it worth running a tape measure over the parts and drawing up a diagram? Especially so if the alternative is to throw out one of the potentially most useful sub assemblies in his construction of an already non-original OTS.

Like James, the cheap USA triangle plenum derestricted Stranglebergs are probably what I'd fit first and maybe play with the triples later, but if the money for cheap Stranglebergs were spent on machining the MkX stuff, Aussie might get his triples for the same money. I used to think the entire triples and starter carb setup could be fitted to an E-type manifold by removing the blanking plugs, but they are closer to the carb flanges than the MkX, so even that would take some fettling
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#15 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by Gfhug » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:09 pm

Could this be worth checking out?
https://jec.org.uk/classifieds/index.ph ... ts&id=2413

Although the part number may seem incorrect for an E Type it is discussed here:
http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?t=8262

Geoff
S2 FHC Light Blue

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#16 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by PeterCrespin » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:46 pm

Gfhug wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:40 am
AussiE why not ask Peter if he's got anything left:-
http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13469
On the grounds it might be the easiest way to get what you need :shrug:

Geoff
I haven't had a single enquiry Geoff. Clearly a price reduction is in order, or I just wait and attach them to the engines I'm building for sale.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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Jeremy66
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#17 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by Jeremy66 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:55 pm

PeterCrespin wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:17 am
Dud info on the carbs I’m afraid.

From recent memory the main body castings are not the same, due to drillings for the fast idle levers and the opposite side adjuster screws being transposed, same as they are on most (all?) other Jag SU HD8 carbs drilled for manual choke but fitted with the AED device XJ) or the starting carb (MkX etc.)

This opposite handedness in turn affects the throttle shafts and levers which are different from the E, together with the expensive choke parts and one float bowl top wrong-handed.

Since the carbs and manifold are not worth much I would wait until the engine and bonnet are fitted. Then I would mount the carbs and measure how ousandsmuch you’d need to lower them to avoid fouling. Then I’d draw the main dimensions out in profile to see if machining a taper on one or both manifold faces would drop the carbs down far enough. If so,, fit the the whole kit and save 3-4 thousand.
Not dud info re the carbs, body castings are the same part number, I never said you could use all of the 420 carb parts but there is certainly plenty to make a good start on building a set of e type carbs. The e type specific parts are available new and sometimes secondhand.

My car running on carbs with bodies and dashpot assemblies modified as noted above, they use the salvaged throttle spindle levers and choke assemblies from the original e type carbs which were so corroded they couldn’t be used:




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PeterCrespin
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#18 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by PeterCrespin » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:03 pm

True, I expressed myself badly - apologies. My Lonsdale set is just like yours and also started out as a MkX or 420G set. It was too long ago to recall whether the rather high cost included body swaps, but here are two HD8 bodies I currently have on the bench, on which I based my post:

Image

The bodies appear functionally identical and both are AUC7090 castings but only the left one can be used in an E-type setup, due to the wrong side fast running level hole and the idle adjust screw being drilled differently, plus fast idle levers and throttle stop levers etc being handed the wrong way (not merely mounted the wrong side).

I have a set of these 'wrong' carbs which I believe to be from a big saloon, hence my comment about limited interchangeability of parts. I did not take them off the car myself, so maybe they aren't MkX? I don't have a saloon parts book and your comment about identical part numbers appears conclusive, but as you can see, there ARE saloon HD8s out there that will not interchange easily. One float bowl top also needs to be changed etc. The throttle linkages and spring arms can be swapped, of course, and two of the float bowl bodies work (the one holding the starting carb does not fit.

Apologies for any confusion.

Pete
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#19 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by Jeremy66 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:47 pm

Hmmmm interesting, I guess they could be from an Aston ££££££££ or a Rover, I keep trying to buy random HD8’s on eBay for spares but they seem to command a premium, I’m short of one of these spring anti skid washers, doesn’t seem to make any difference but would be nice to get the last piece of the puzzle!


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#20 Re: S1 & 420G similarity

Post by Jeremy66 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:51 pm

Dashpot thread / Tap size for anyone that needs it is 11/16x26


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