problem with cam follower

Talk about the E-Type Series 1

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SteveRTennison
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#1 problem with cam follower

Post by SteveRTennison » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:58 am

I have just completed a 1600 mile tour around france in my 1964 e-type. Just before I got to Dieppe the engine started making a nasty knocking noise. i was then brought home by the AA. i have now stripped down head and the cam follower in one of the exhaust valves has frozen, i cannot move it. does anyone have a suggestion as to how this can be removed - I dont think taking the head off will help as I cannot release the valve without removing the cam follower.

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mgcjag
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#2 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by mgcjag » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:06 pm

Try a magnet of top and some pluss gas.......some of the weld magnets are quite strong and at least let you try to pull/twist on it
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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abowie
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#3 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by abowie » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:39 pm

How low down in the bore is it stuck? A picture for us would be very helpful.

It is probably worth trying to see if you can move or rotate it at all, but I suspect that it will not be possible. Again gently tapping the follower downwards to see if you can loosen it might be worthwhile but you need to ensure that the piston is low in the bore when you do it. Try rotating the engine with a crank spanner with the plugs out and see if the cam lobe moves the follower at all. If it moves, put oil on top and then try to bounce it out against the spring using a hammer and a punch.

If it stuck fast you will probably have to recut the bucket bore anyway before fitting another. In addition there is a good chance that you have bent the valve as well. Either way the head really should come off.

I suppose you could drill and tap a hole in the top surface and use a slide hammer to get it out, but again it probably damaged the bore when it stuck.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#4 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by SteveRTennison » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:24 pm

I dont have a strong enough magnet, I can just about get it to rotate with locking pliers but plus gas does seem to have helped a little

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SteveRTennison
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#5 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by SteveRTennison » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:32 pm

abowie wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:39 pm
How low down in the bore is it stuck? A picture for us would be very helpful.

it is probably worth trying to see if you can move or rotate it at all, but I suspect that it will not be possible. Again gently tapping the follower downwards to see if you can loosen it might be worthwhile but you need to ensure that the piston is low in the bore when you do it. Try rotating the engine with a crank spanner with the plugs out and see if the cam lobe moves the follower at all. If it moves, put oil on top and then try to bounce it out against the spring using a hammer and a punch.

If it stuck fast you will probably have to recut the bucket bore anyway before fitting another. In addition there is a good chance that you have bent the valve as well. Either way the head really should come off.

I suppose you could drill and tap a hole in the top surface and use a slide hammer to get it out, but again it probably damaged the bore when it stuck.
The follower is projecting just slightly above the bore by about the same amount as the other followers, just enough to get some pliers on it to rotate it a little. I can get the follower to bounce slightly by tapping with a hammer so it is not completely fixed. Now I have got the cam shaft off I cannot check whether rotating the cam shaft moves the follower. Will take a picture tomorrow

Steve

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#6 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by abowie » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:29 pm

OK. If it rotates and is at the same level as the others are you absolutely SURE it's stuck?

When shimming heads with newly cut bores and new followers that have a bore clearance of 6/10th of one thou I occasionally get one stuck. If you have enough of the top projecting that you can grip it you should be able with lubrication and rotation to get it to twist up and out. I use a pair of slip jaw pliers that I have ground the rounded tips of the beak completely flat to get the best bite, and put them on vertically. You might get lucky.

The next question is why it happened. It will either be inadequate lubrication, excessive wear between bore and follower or that the follower guide itself has come loose in the head. All of these would need addressing and fixing.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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mgcjag
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#7 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by mgcjag » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:33 am

Hi Steve.....did you have both camshafts set to tdc when you removed the exhaust cam......whatever procedure you now follow you dont really want to be turning tbe cams unless you have all pistons down from tdc and then only turn a camshaft if you only have one fitted at a time......you probably know this slready but im just pointing it out.........
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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ralphr1780
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#8 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by ralphr1780 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:46 am

Steve, you could try applying few shots of a freezing spray then pull it out with the pliers.
Last time I shimmed the valves I faced a similar situation and the spray released it.
Hope to have been of service.
Ralph
'69 OTS + '62 OTS - Belgium

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#9 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by mgcjag » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:01 am

Just to add i really think the head needs to come off to inspect....you had "nasty knocking noises" if the bucket stuck in the down position the opposite valve and piston will have hit it
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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#10 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by SteveRTennison » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:26 pm

Thanks to everyone for comments. After two days I finally managed to remove it,fraction of a turn at a time, very difficult to rotate. There was only very slight scoring on the surface - didnt seem enough to cause it to stick. However now, examining the bore which seemed to be OK i noticed that it looks like there is a broken spring - no idea whether this was caused by the cam follower sticking or caused the cam follower to stick, either way the head will now have to come of. :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

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chrisfell
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#11 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by chrisfell » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:04 pm

Someone, a lister on the J-L site, has replaced springs and cotters without removing the head. Might be worth checking that before the head comes off. Of course, if the valve is bent, the head must come off.
Chris '67 S1 2+2

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#12 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by SteveRTennison » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:50 pm

Hi all - got the head off yesterday and all of the valves out today. Discovered to my surprise that the large exhaust spring for both valves 3 and 4 were completely destroyed, both were in 5 or 6 pieces explains the nasty noises and the lack of power. see picture.

Image

Also, as an aside, I saw some posts about problems with valve spring compressors. I purchased a
Draper 02325 Expert Valve Spring Compressor 35 - 142mm Capacity. This seems really heavy duty and coped with no problems, just an extension tube to initially release the collets (See picture below)

Image

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christopher storey
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#13 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by christopher storey » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:02 pm

Crikey !! In 60 years of playing with engines I have never seen anything like that . There has to be a reason, but at present I have nothing to suggest except possibly gross over-revving leading to valve bounce. What do the relevant pistons look like ?

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#14 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by SteveRTennison » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:06 pm

I agree, I've never seen anything like it. The engine has not been over revved, i've never got anywhere near the rev limit. No detectable problems with the pistons, valves or combustion chambers. These springs were only replaced about 3000miles ago when the valves and seats were changed for unleaded operation. Can only assume they were faulty unless anyone has another suggestion. As it is The whole thing will get re-assembled next week with all new springs.

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#15 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by mgcjag » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:16 pm

Valves and seats do not have to be replaced to run on unleaded fuel.....All XK engins have Alloy heads and hard seats..and need no modification for unleaded fuel...Steve
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PeterCrespin
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#16 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by PeterCrespin » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:41 am

:helpsos:
SteveRTennison wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:06 pm
I agree, I've never seen anything like i.
Me neither. Bad wire or heat treatment I suspect. Assuming the parts are standard dimension, springs cannot be moved beyond their elastic limit - the spring retainer would hit the guides before that happened. Wild cams and mismatched springs could result in coil binding, but again not with normal spec parts
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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politeperson
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#17 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by politeperson » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:19 pm

The reason the springs broke is that they were getting on for 60 years old I would think.

My guess is they were not renewed when the engine was rebuilt.
James

L.J.K. Setright was right.
"You just cant beat a good E-type"

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Series1 Stu
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#18 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by Series1 Stu » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:46 pm

A spring is much more likely to fail in such a spectacular way in infancy, not after 50 odd years of use.

Springs are designed to remain within their material's elastic limit during normal use and not to lose their temper for many millions of cycles.

I would suggest that this spring was either incorrectly heat treated, or installed in such a manner that it became coil bound and destroyed itself under the action of the cam.

It is extremely unusual to see this type of failure in any properly designed mechanism.

Regards
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'94 X300 XJR basket case

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#19 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by abowie » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:31 pm

And the fact that it's a number of them rather than just one lends credence to them being from a bad batch or being incorrectly sized leading to them binding with the inners.

Vis a vis collet removal I use one similar to this:

http://www.mactools.co.uk/rate-mac-tool ... -installer

Much easier than using a spring compressor. At a pinch you can use a long socket of the correct diameter but the magnet in this device makes it more controlled.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#20 Re: problem with cam follower

Post by PeterCrespin » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:34 am

Scratching my head trying to visualize that gadget working, but having done two heads in the last few days I’m motivated to try. One ‘why didn’t I think of this sooner’ trick is I now the head from the engine crane, hooked through the breather aperture, while I sit on a stool and use the valve spring compressor horizontally with full access to both ends of every valve in one go.

Your mention of rubbing reminds me many paired spring setups show polished contact points at renewal. It’s where inner and outer springs rub each other lightly. This can be a design feature to damp down any harmonic surging that can happen, albeit that used to happen mostly on old sidevalves with long ‘floppy’ springs with many more turns. Those are the only time I’ve seen an actual breakage, but metallurgy and engine design were still pretty basic in the 1930s motorbikes.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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