123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

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andrewh
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#21 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by andrewh » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:32 pm

andrewh wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:29 pm
I did not run it Peter as I didn't want to foul up the new plugs. I can tell you now, fuel goes off within 6 months. The lawnmower service chaps will confirm that, but I dont need to have them confirm it. I have experienced it first hand many times. A well known Aston Martin specialist told me years ago that 99% of all cars coming into them with starting or running problems in the spring, all they do now is empty the fuel and clean the plugs and off they go again . Modern petrol is SH$T%E
edit. I should say that I would normally have taken it for an Italian tune up, but as you will appreciate driving cars for the sake of it is currently banned. Better not to start it and mess the plugs unless I was going straight out. Easy to change the petrol out for fresh. I have only got 1/4 tank and that will go in my 1971 Range Rover which will run on dog pee if needed. Super low compression :bigrin:
1962 3.8 Series One FHC

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ralphr1780
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#22 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by ralphr1780 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:05 am

Andrew, more seriously now, the rotten smell you have noted is due to bacterial growth. Some bacteria can develop in fuel during storage. This is a major concern in military and civil aviation where they have large safety storage, tackled by using specific bactericide additives.
If your tank is contaminated, do not tranfer any of its contents into another car or else you will be spreading the contamination.
You would better flush your tank and complete fuel line, and make future regular checks on whether the problem is surging back or not. It is not excluded that the contamination might be coming from your petrol station storage tank.
Ralph
'69 OTS + '62 OTS - Belgium

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#23 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by adam » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:39 am

Misfire on my car with a 123 turned out to be a faulty regulator over charging.I changed plug wires plugs new dizzy cap stripped carbs coil .The over charging was causing the ignition to have the problem after the drain on the battery after starting, once battery was fully charged within a few miles misfire would start if you read there website i found mention that electrical noise can be a problem i have posted this some where on the forum before hope this helps.

Adam

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#24 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by Tom W » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:08 am

I’ve experienced a charging related misfire with my 123 too. In my case, the alternator output voltage would occasionally go above the operating voltage of the 123, causing it to turn off momentarily. It caused a very abrupt misfire, rather than the stumbling you usually get when one or two cylinders aren’t firing. No long term damage was done, and once I’d fixed the charging circuit things returned to normal.
Tom
1970 S2 FHC

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#25 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by tinworm » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:09 am

Thats a new one on me Ralph. I have seen beacterial growth in a machine pit where a slow drip of hydraulic oil started a massive fungal growth - and I have heard Diesel fuel can go the same - but I thought the aromatics(?) killed anything in Petroleum.
Modern petrol does do not keep like the fuels of old , but I have found it doesn't start to stink for 2 or 3 years - you don't have to drain it though (well not if you have a few gallons in a tank) just add more fresh petrol and off you go.

Barrie
1968 E-type roadster, 1964 E-type fixed head 1995 Ferrari 355 1980 Ferrari 308 1987 V8 90 Landrover 1988 Bedford rascal van 1943 Ford GPW

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#26 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by Tom W » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:22 am

In the instructions for my 123, negative earth none tune version, the operating voltage is stated as 4-15 volts. I would measure your charging voltage at the connector point above the battery. If you’re near or above 15v, I suspect that’s your problem.

In my instance, it was a relay in the charging circuit that wasn’t making full contact. The resistance across the relay caused a voltage drop between the alternator and regulator, so the regulator saw an artificially low voltage and upped the output to compensate. I appreciate the dynamo setup is different, but the same principles apply.
Tom
1970 S2 FHC

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#27 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by andrewh » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:29 am

Some interesting inputs here , thanks chaps . I will check the voltage when I start the car up. Reference bacterial growth, I have no knowledge of this, other than to say that I have a Willys Jeep where the fuel went off. No matter how much fresh fuel I put in the tank to wash it through the exhaust still smells of stale fuel. So maybe there is something in this Ralph. Not doubting you, just hadn't heard this before.
1962 3.8 Series One FHC

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ralphr1780
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#28 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by ralphr1780 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:54 pm

No intention to bore you further with this, but for sake of better illustration: this fuel bacteria enjoys ideal growth conditions in the interfacial surface between water and gasoline. Modern gasoline with ethanol has a tendency to condense water from ambiant air and absorb it. When resting, it will settle in the bottom of the sump, so it gets picked up when you fire the engine and cause issues couple of min later.
Ralph
'69 OTS + '62 OTS - Belgium

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#29 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by tinworm » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:13 pm

Well you live and learn Ralph !

Barrie
1968 E-type roadster, 1964 E-type fixed head 1995 Ferrari 355 1980 Ferrari 308 1987 V8 90 Landrover 1988 Bedford rascal van 1943 Ford GPW

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#30 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by PeterCrespin » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:21 pm

This has been (continues to be) an interesting thread in terms of decision-making and other aspects that relate to market making, medical diagnosis, trouble-shooting in general and even relationships. Since we're all stuck indoors, it might be worth a sideways look.

The title of the thread says where Andrew was coming from as a three-time 123 user. He began(lightly edited):

“I decided to replace my fully-rebuilt Lucas distributor, leads and coil with a 123 and to be honest she has never run perfectly since. There have always been intermittent misfires for apparently no reason.”

Call me old-fashioned (© M. Hermaszewski) but there are three logical reasons: 1) Faulty part(s) and/or 2) faulty installation and/or 3) faulty service conditions. Occam’s Razor applies and none of the above involve fuel.

“….it’s reasonable to say I have had one or two OK-on-all-6 experiences, but most of the time I have a misfire.”

Depending on how you define ‘OK on all six’, it appears that 1 and 2 can be set aside temporarily, since faulty electronic ignition or bad installation would tend most often to result in failure to proceed or consistent bad running. Plus Andrew has fitted 123s before. We might have to come back to them later if 3 turns out to be wrong. There’s still no need to add complexity and start thinking about a simultaneous fuel issue, at least not yet.

“The 123 does seem to be pretty sensitive to lots of outside influences. Can anyone shed any light on similar experiences…?”

Indeed they can. Several listers agreed with you. In their estimation the 123 is “pretty sensitive” as you correctly put it, to electromagnetic/RF interference in cars running non resistor plugs. You further wrote:

“There is no doubt that one downside of an electronic ignition is they seem far more sensitive to resistances etc.”
“I am beginning to think the issue is going to turn out to be the lack of resistor plugs, thank you David for the above.”
“I need to revisit all my connections and fit my soon-to-arrive resistor plugs.”


Bingo. Looks like you have your answer and you make the next logical move by ordering the correct plugs for an E-type running a 123 It is highly likely that the plugs will fix the problem, but even if they did not on this occasion, their fitment is the wise thing to do and would help avoid future sensitivity problems if, say, a marginal connection crept in somewhere. Fitting the plugs you just bought is a no-brainer. Job’s a good ‘un, but no – spoke too soon.

When you took them out, the misfiring engine’s plugs smelled like your dad’s “sheds full of old vehicles that had not run for years.” Your car is like new and had a good run down to Goodwood a few months ago on the same tankful, and is stored in a dry garage. Nevertheless, smell is indeed one of the primal senses and it has clearly 'sparked' a handbrake turn in a new direction that risks the massive traps of observer and confirmation biases (which is normal, not a personal attack, Andrew).

It will be a useful lesson for us all, however this works out. I have no insights to offer regarding your particular car, and sight unseen (or 'tank-un-sniffed') it's quite possibly nothing to do with ignition. The problem is you have spelled out correctly the key factors that spell out why that's a favourite first guess and are now describing things that argue against your initial view. This happens to us all sometimes if we think around some subjects. I am interested in the process by which the eventual solution is achieved. It would be boring and we’d learn little if we all thought the same way. One person’s snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is another person’s creative leap forward. Please keep us posted! Since the Grand National is off, maybe Angus could run a book?
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#31 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by andrewh » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:47 am

I will of course keep the forum abreast of my results. It could be a while before the E type gets to have a run and establish the results of the various diagnostics. If that's what you can call them. Years of messing around with ICEs has left me in little doubt that most carburettor problems are electrical :bigrin: So whilst the petrol does smell off, and without a doubt stale ethanol laced fuel can cause low octane misfiring, gummed up needles floats, destroyed plastic floats, water in fuel lines etc etc, its just as likely to be incorrect plugs or a dynamo charging the battery outside the tolerance of the 123, not to mention a dicky connection, rubbish Gold coloured coil or whatever. On the coil front has anyone noticed that there is a new manufacturer, British so it must be good :bigrin: , of coils which professes to outshine cheap Far Eastern Ignition coils. Now what's it called, I have bought one.....quick Google....ah yes a Remax. Since I purchased a standard 12 v for my Series 2 Land Rover, I see that they now manufacture a Sports Coil as well. I think I had better purchase one of those as well. Interesting comparison PDF with one of the suppliers, AES showing how the two look like internally. Back to the Matchless G3WO ( one for your Peter ) restoration now as I cannot do any more on the E type until restrictions lift. Stay safe friends.
1962 3.8 Series One FHC

http://etype860897.blogspot.com/

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#32 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by andrewh » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:13 am

So I just started up the E type with the new plugs and new sports coil as mentioned above. I didn’t change the petrol as a sniff in the tank did not smell bad. It’s on a very nice 6 cylinders no popping pretty much perfect. I measured the battery across the terminal at 2000 rpm and have 15.77 volts. I may need to look into this if the misfire returns is obvious on the road rather than outside the garage. No driving sadly so I will have to wait the outcome of a decent test drive.
1962 3.8 Series One FHC

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#33 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by Mark Gordon » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:11 pm

"No driving sadly so I will have to wait the outcome of a decent test drive"

I'm inferring from this post and others on the forum that you Brits have been restricted from driving during the pandemic? I don't understand the rationale for such a restriction as long as you either drive solo or only with a person (i.e. family member) with whom you're hibernating. You aren't at risk of contracting the corona virus while breathing outside air and surely your petrol stations are currently like ours in that with fewer people out and moving around and therefore burning less petrol, the stations are relatively deserted and again no risk of virus transmission. I've made a couple of runs the past two weeks and have really enjoyed the lack of traffic.
Mark

67 OTS 1E14988, 2015 Camry XSE

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#34 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by mgcjag » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:23 pm

Hi Mark....here in the UK were being asked to stay at home.....only going out for essentials..eg drive to/from shops but no driveing for pleasure.....a pleasure drive is not risk free any type of breakdown or incident could potentially put you or others at risk....if we all did it our roads would be full and the usual thousands of incidents per day......Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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#35 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by Tom W » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:15 pm

I suspect your charging voltage is still too high. It’s above the operating range of the 123. When the misfire used to occur, was it very abrupt, like the ignition was turned off momentarily?
Tom
1970 S2 FHC

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#36 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by andrewh » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:38 pm

No the misfire just came about occasionally and usually
On start up from a few days or weeks sitting. Previous journey would have been perfect and then it decided to misfire next time I started it. I need to give it a good run with the new plus which are resistor plugs. If I get issues again I shall look at the charging but since I am reliant on a reproduction RB340 I am a bit stumped from advice on adjustment above which seems not very possible
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#37 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by PeterCrespin » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:09 pm

Good news on the resistor plugs (so far) but the best part of 16V at only 2000 rpm is likely to fry something expensive eventually. Did you measuring beyond 2000 rpm?

It’s not hard to build in over-voltage protection but you shoudn’t rely on it, just as you shouldn’t rely on a rev-limiter to guarantee your engine will survive being bounced of the limit every gear change.

Have you ever adjusted a voltage regulator? It's a driveway job if you have a multimeter. See Bentley or Haynes.

As for my friend and neighbour Mark Gordon - the finest dentist ever to live at his address whilst owning a white Series 1 OTS - a key reason old farts like he and I were urged yesterday to start wearing masks in public, was to avoid frightening vulnerable young women in our region. ‘Vulnerable’ meaning any woman not registered blind.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#38 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by cactusman » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:36 pm

16 volts....too high....around 13.5 to 14 volts is ok. I'd doubt the 123 simply shuts down at 15 volts....if it does....poor design IMO...most cars will operate at around 14 volts and the old RB340 regulator is notoriously not brilliant and the car voltage may well make brief excursions above 15 volts even if it is working....
Julian the E-type man
1962 FHC
1966 MGB....fab little car too

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#39 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by andrewh » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:27 am

I did not check 2000 rpm as I had nobody available to assist. Will look into adjustment of the RB. If I recall it’s got sealed fixings for the cover on mine. Ah well I have time at the moment.
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#40 Re: 123 Tune.....I am not so sure anymore 1962 3.8

Post by PeterCrespin » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:06 am

What was the outcome of this saga, Andrew?

I see from Rory’s resurrection of your RB340 thread that you’ve had overcharging to the point of acid spillage since 2017. Is this the same car? The RB340 issue can be confirmed/resolved without needing a test drive.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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