Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Talk about the E-Type Series 1

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rojakilian
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#1 Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by rojakilian » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:28 pm

Hello Jaguar Guys,

what could be the reason for that? Any ideas? :scratchheadyellow:

Best regards


Robert

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Gfhug
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#2 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by Gfhug » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:14 pm

Robert, it would help if you told us which series car you have, S2 has different horn control to S1.
Add it to your signature. Sorry can't help otherwise

Geoff
S2 FHC Light Blue
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration

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Heuer
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#3 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by Heuer » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm

As he is posting in the S1 Forum I assume he has one of those?

Robert has a short in the steering column so I think he needs to disassemble the whole thing. SNGB sell a kit of parts although it is worth trying to reuse the originals, specifically the brass/copper parts.

There is a column restoration thread somewhere on the Forum.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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#4 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by abowie » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:56 pm

It'll be a short somewhere inside the steering column. Which is easiest sorted out with the steering column on the bench.
Were it me I'd just disconnect it.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#5 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by Heuer » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:35 am

First test is to remove the horn push and see if the problem still exists. If it does then solving the problem would be, as Andrew says, best resolved with the column on the bench.

This is what it looks like:

Image
Image

Suggest you dismantle the shaft and give everything a good clean. Basically the white ring clip sits over the shaft where the hole is. The small brass nipple fits into the hole, the spring goes on top and the brass collar holds everything in place. When the long thin inner brass rod is in place the nipple is in permanent contact with it regardless of rotation. The copper contact completes the circuit.

Image

The original contacts were beryllium copper which is a good spring material. The new ones are regular copper, which is not. The BeCu will stay in contact, regular copper will relax to wherever it's held and not spring back. Hutsons sell ta repair kit if you need it. This is the repro copper contact to be wary of so try and reuse the original:

Image
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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rojakilian
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#6 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by rojakilian » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:38 pm

Hello again from Germany,

first of all many thanks for your answers.

Yes, its a ser 1 horn, therefore posting in the ser 1 forum.

As far as i could see from the wiring diagram, the horn works if you ground the earth wiring from the relay which opens and closes the strong wires to the horns . the relay itself has permanant current, but no ground until you push the centre of the steering wheel. Therefore the ground wiring from the relay to he column is insulated against ground.
now is the question what part of the arrangement fails - i suspect it could be the brass sleeve where the copper berrilium piece makes contact via the spring to the inner brass rod? or is it something else i have overseen?

Maybe someone has had just the same problem and i a can avoid to to take the column in and out until miracoulesly it works.... :bigrin:

Kind Regards

Robert

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Philk
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#7 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by Philk » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:49 am

I had exactly the same problem on my S1. In my case, it was down to the bottom bush in the upper steering column perishing with old age and causing a short as the wheel turned with the inner and out column meeting (it does not need much lateral movement at the wheel to cause a 2mm sideways movement further down in the mechanism). It is highly likely that your issue is down to a short somewhere in the upper column assembly.
Phil
1964 S1 3.8 OTS

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H7OB
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#8 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by H7OB » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:52 pm

I had a similar problem except, in addition to play in the column, I had my wipers randomly go on the extremes of lock! It was a combination of the aforementioned bushes and a hole worn in the loom just above a splined section of the column.

I second David's tip on opening out the bushes a little. They seemed very tight without. Thanks to all, I also have lost that slightly un-nerving sensation that the wheel might come off in your hand, not to mention the 3 degrees giving it what-for round every tight corner!

:salute:
Paul
'68 Series 1.25 2+2

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#9 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by rojakilian » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:53 pm

Hello again from Germany,

the reason for the fault was the berillium/copper contact (as recomended i used the original one) which was making contact to the outer column .

If someone has the same problems, some explanation, now that i see clear:

There could be NO short cut in the circuit as you only earth the wire to the horn relay (W1), when you push the horn button.

I cant also be the failure of the bearings outer/inner column as the inner column itself is isolated to the ground wire coming from the relay. Ground contact for the relay comes from the wire, goes to the berilium/copper unit,(picture 3 post 5; 3rd from right) from there contact is made thru the brass ring (looks like a crown; 1 from left) this ring itself is isolated against the inner column via the plastic ring (2 from left) where the tiny spring (4 from left) sits in. earth again goes thru the small spring (ball pen size) with a little pin (3 from left) at one end. this pin again makes contact to the inner brass rod which itself is also isolated against the inner column (5 from left , 1 and 2 from right). only when you push the horn, ground contact will be made thru the grub screws to the inner colunm which is connected via another copper contact (4 from right) to the outer column and the car itself.
Sounds complicated, but isnt so much, when you see thru.

Best regards
Robert :wavegreatbritain:

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#10 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by bsee » Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:40 am

I have a 64 OTS series 1 with the same horn problem. At first the horn went off when turning the wheel. After looking at this site I took apart the steering column & cleaned the parts. Found that the spring for the nipple was stretched out so replaced it with one from a ball point pen. Reassembled everything & now horn goes off all the time. The rod is out the horn button is off, but still horn blows. There isn't a metal rod for the car instead it is a hard wire with a spring on one end & bare wire on the other. Any suggestions as to what might be the problem?
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#11 Horn works when steering wheel is turned

Post by myharris » Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:56 am

Here is the video for those wanting disassembly instructions..
Mike Harris

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Heuer
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#12 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by Heuer » Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:44 am

bsee wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:40 am
There isn't a metal rod for the car instead it is a hard wire with a spring on one end & bare wire on the other. Any suggestions as to what might be the problem?
Non original parts. Suggest you buy the correct ones starting with a new brass rod. Remove the column from the car, disassemble the unit and test it on the bench before reinstalling.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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#13 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by PeterCrespin » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:28 pm

rojakilian wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:28 pm
Hello Jaguar Guys,
what could be the reason for that? Any ideas? :scratchheadyellow:
Robert
I was going to suggest you might have the rare German autobahn model where you can select horn or main beam to come on whenever you have to press the brakes hard. Worth checking you don't have the South of France export spec designed to sound the horn at every blind turn on the Corniche. Not to be confused with the 'hands free' Rome and Athens export cars where the horn button is in the drivers seat cushion and sounds almost constantly.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#14 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by bsee » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:28 pm

Heuer wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:44 am
bsee wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:40 am
There isn't a metal rod for the car instead it is a hard wire with a spring on one end & bare wire on the other. Any suggestions as to what might be the problem?
Non original parts. Suggest you buy the correct ones starting with a new brass rod. Remove the column from the car, disassemble the unit and test it on the bench before reinstalling.
replaced the mickey mouse piece with correct one. however horn goes off whenever key is turned on. you mention disassembling unit from car & testing. how do I test it? haven't done this before so looking for guidance any help would be greatly appreciated.

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#15 Re: Horn works when steering wheel is turned (very annoying)

Post by Philk » Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:04 am

bsee wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:28 pm
Heuer wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:44 am
bsee wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:40 am
There isn't a metal rod for the car instead it is a hard wire with a spring on one end & bare wire on the other. Any suggestions as to what might be the problem?
Non original parts. Suggest you buy the correct ones starting with a new brass rod. Remove the column from the car, disassemble the unit and test it on the bench before reinstalling.
replaced the mickey mouse piece with correct one. however horn goes off whenever key is turned on. you mention disassembling unit from car & testing. how do I test it? haven't done this before so looking for guidance any help would be greatly appreciated.
From your description, it is possible that the inner upper steering column is touching its outer casing thereby causing the horn mechanism to earth. This, in turn, is likely due to one of the bushes at the top and bottom of the upper steering column failing (or being absent) and needing to be replaced. I found the following video extremely helpful when I did this job on my car,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YV531ftzLE
Phil
1964 S1 3.8 OTS

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