Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
#1 Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
Apologies if I'm revisiting old matters; I've seen some discussions regarding grade upgrading in Series 1, but it seems nothing conclusive arose from them. My doubts are: it seems from the forum that the four best options for upgrading the brakes (both front and rear, clearly from prior discussions everybody agreed on the need to do it simultaneously) are Zeus and Coopercraft, being Coopercraft a little less desirable in terms of authenticity (due to the visibility of the "Coopercraft" lettering through the spokes"). In addition, it seems that BG Developments and Motoring Classics are offering good opportunities for an adequate upgrade.
So my questions are: any thoughts on these four brands? (apart from what people has already told in the forum?). Also, I would like to know what the right focus is, irrespectively of the brand, to have brakes really adapted to the current traffic conditions: is vented rights plus calipers the right upgrade?
So my questions are: any thoughts on these four brands? (apart from what people has already told in the forum?). Also, I would like to know what the right focus is, irrespectively of the brand, to have brakes really adapted to the current traffic conditions: is vented rights plus calipers the right upgrade?
S1 FHC 3.8
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#2 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
Personally, I believe that unless you're a really poor driver, vented rotors are a waste of money. I've never seen an upgrade that puts vented rotors on the rear, and the rears will ALWAYS fail first if you over-use the brakes on an E-type. I live in the mountains, and drive hard, but have never once experienced even a hint of fade with non-vented rotors. On a race track is a completely different situation, but I think vented rotors for street use are completely unnecessary.
My car has Wilwood Dynalite 1.75" 4-piston calipers in the front, and the old Dunlop 2-1/8" front calipers moved to the rear, using stock rotors front and rear. It stops just fine. To be clear, it stops NO faster than with the stock Dunlop brakes - only the "feel" is improved. That will be true for ANY brake "upgrade" as with a properly functioning stock brake setup, stopping distance is limited by the tires, NOT the brakes. MY only objection to the Dunlop system is the high pedal effort required to achieve maximum braking. The Wilwood calipers simply reduce the pedal effort, and provide a more linear response.
Regards,
Ray L.
My car has Wilwood Dynalite 1.75" 4-piston calipers in the front, and the old Dunlop 2-1/8" front calipers moved to the rear, using stock rotors front and rear. It stops just fine. To be clear, it stops NO faster than with the stock Dunlop brakes - only the "feel" is improved. That will be true for ANY brake "upgrade" as with a properly functioning stock brake setup, stopping distance is limited by the tires, NOT the brakes. MY only objection to the Dunlop system is the high pedal effort required to achieve maximum braking. The Wilwood calipers simply reduce the pedal effort, and provide a more linear response.
Regards,
Ray L.
Regards,
Ray L.
Ray L.
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#3 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
The "upgrade" which you get with vented rear brakes isn't to do with the braking, but is to do with the failure mode.
Once the rear differential output seals get hot enough to deteriorate, oil can migrate out and along the half shafts. With solid rotorss, the oil then spreads itself onto the inner faces of the solid rotors so that the brake pad wear on the inner and outer pads will be uneven.
With vented rotors, there is less probablility of overheating to start with and if the output seals deteriorate this time, the oil migrates out, along the half shafts and into the vents, rather than onto the discs as that is the surface it next encounters. The "upgrade" isn't improved braking, but more even pad wear and longer pad life, were that to have been compromised already.
kind regards
Marek
Once the rear differential output seals get hot enough to deteriorate, oil can migrate out and along the half shafts. With solid rotorss, the oil then spreads itself onto the inner faces of the solid rotors so that the brake pad wear on the inner and outer pads will be uneven.
With vented rotors, there is less probablility of overheating to start with and if the output seals deteriorate this time, the oil migrates out, along the half shafts and into the vents, rather than onto the discs as that is the surface it next encounters. The "upgrade" isn't improved braking, but more even pad wear and longer pad life, were that to have been compromised already.
kind regards
Marek
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#4 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
Marek,
But still.... If you're getting the brakes that hot driving on the street, you're either doing something very wrong, or driving like an absolute maniac, and almost certainly risking other peoples lives. I have never once gotten my brakes hot enough for that to be of any concern whatsoever.
Regards,
Ray L.
But still.... If you're getting the brakes that hot driving on the street, you're either doing something very wrong, or driving like an absolute maniac, and almost certainly risking other peoples lives. I have never once gotten my brakes hot enough for that to be of any concern whatsoever.
Regards,
Ray L.
Regards,
Ray L.
Ray L.
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#5 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
Fortunately, I don't drive like that.
The only reason I have vented discs goes like this........
The car stood for a long time whilst I was redesigning the car and the rear calipers seized to discs.
I happened upon a chap who raced his XJS and had vented discs. The scrutineers had demanded that they be removed as they were not homologated to the car for that type of racing and so he put them up on eBay and I paid £65 for new calipers and (vented) discs.
I removed my seized Girling calipers and sold them at Stoneleigh for £50 later that weekend.
I thus repaired the rusty seized calipers for £15
It gets better......
To cap it all, at that time Martin Robey had stainless steel pistons in their catalogue for just 50pence more than the standard pistons, so I fitted those at a grand cost of £10.50 each instead of £10 per item.
Why are you not surprised Ray?
kind regards
Marek
The only reason I have vented discs goes like this........
The car stood for a long time whilst I was redesigning the car and the rear calipers seized to discs.
I happened upon a chap who raced his XJS and had vented discs. The scrutineers had demanded that they be removed as they were not homologated to the car for that type of racing and so he put them up on eBay and I paid £65 for new calipers and (vented) discs.
I removed my seized Girling calipers and sold them at Stoneleigh for £50 later that weekend.
I thus repaired the rusty seized calipers for £15
It gets better......
To cap it all, at that time Martin Robey had stainless steel pistons in their catalogue for just 50pence more than the standard pistons, so I fitted those at a grand cost of £10.50 each instead of £10 per item.
Why are you not surprised Ray?
kind regards
Marek
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#6 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
Because I know you?MarekH wrote: Why are you not surprised Ray?
That whole deal sounds like just an "average" deal for you! :-)
Regards,
Ray L.
Regards,
Ray L.
Ray L.
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#7 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
No, I still lost £15.....
It's one reason why I named the car "Dorian Red" - everyday I get uglier, the car gets more beautiful. Funnily enough, the original bits are mostly in the loft.
kind regards
Marek
It's one reason why I named the car "Dorian Red" - everyday I get uglier, the car gets more beautiful. Funnily enough, the original bits are mostly in the loft.
kind regards
Marek
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#8 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
I am contemplating a Coopercraft brake upgrade as I wanted to improve the stopping distance & feel of the brakes and from what you are saying it makes no difference to the stopping distanceRayLivingston wrote: To be clear, it stops NO faster than with the stock Dunlop brakes - only the "feel" is improved. That will be true for ANY brake "upgrade" as with a properly functioning stock brake setup, stopping distance is limited by the tires, NOT the brakes. MY only objection to the Dunlop system is the high pedal effort required to achieve maximum braking.
Then the cost of a brake upgrade front & back to improve only the feel is an expensive upgrade for very little then.
( I assume this would be the same on a S2 ?)
Mike,
1970 S2 FHC 2R28165
1970 S2 FHC 2R28165
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#9 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
Dear Mike,
The stopping distance won't improve, but factors that might affect the feel will include the front to rear balance or the amount of assist from the servo.
Fitting a s3 servo onto a s2 car will make your brakes appear stronger as the s3 servo is 1" wider in diameter than the s2 servo so provides more assist.
Pete had one fitted on one of his cars iirc. Perhaps he can chime in with an opinion.
kind regards
Marek
The stopping distance won't improve, but factors that might affect the feel will include the front to rear balance or the amount of assist from the servo.
Fitting a s3 servo onto a s2 car will make your brakes appear stronger as the s3 servo is 1" wider in diameter than the s2 servo so provides more assist.
Pete had one fitted on one of his cars iirc. Perhaps he can chime in with an opinion.
kind regards
Marek
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#10 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
Zeus on the front (assuming that your existing set up has Dunlops ) and leave the rears alone . The front brakes do the majority of the work and are the part that is deficient in S1 form. If you have Girlings, as on S2 cars, then if they are in good order they should be quite adequate for road use, but to fit Girling to an S1 car needs a change of the uprights
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#11 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
Thanks for all the feedback so far! To sum up, it seems that vented rotors is something definitely you need unless you track (and a potential source of problems, too) So what is the optimal solution? Just changing the calipers? Any differences between the possible options? I think that Zeus for instance has vented and non vented calipers.
S1 FHC 3.8
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#12 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
If you have the original 3.8 solid 3/8" thick disc's i would swap those to 1/2" thick as per S1 4.2 .
Steve3.8
64 3.8 fhc, 67 4.2 fhc
64 3.8 fhc, 67 4.2 fhc
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#13 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
I'll just leave this here and wait for the abuse.
I definitely don't need them, however I did want them and they give me a warm fuzzy feeling looking at them.
Simon
I definitely don't need them, however I did want them and they give me a warm fuzzy feeling looking at them.
Simon
Simon
1969 S2 OTS
1969 S2 OTS
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#14 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
Simon, so long as you'll get a warm fuzzy feeling when you use them.
Well you expected some abuse
Geoff
Well you expected some abuse
Geoff
S2 FHC Light Blue
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration
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#15 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
I think I may have started this thread resurrection with my question regarding Volvo calipers .
If I'm understanding correctly you can fit Volvo vented disc calipers to a series 1 using the drill through modification. With this you can fit series 3 discs?
Anyone done it ?
Is it possible.
If so it seems a cheap way to upgrade
Thanks
Tim
If I'm understanding correctly you can fit Volvo vented disc calipers to a series 1 using the drill through modification. With this you can fit series 3 discs?
Anyone done it ?
Is it possible.
If so it seems a cheap way to upgrade
Thanks
Tim
Series 1 FHC purchased 40 years ago. Courted my wife in it.
Series 1 2+2 when the kids were small now sold.
Series 1.5 OTS in opalescent maroon, Californian car. My retirement present.
Series 1 2+2 when the kids were small now sold.
Series 1.5 OTS in opalescent maroon, Californian car. My retirement present.
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#16 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
Tim Wood posted: "If I'm understanding correctly you can fit Volvo vented disc calipers to a series 1 using the drill through modification. With this you can fit series 3 discs"
I have done this and wrote it up as a pdf. You can find the writeup here **Look at both pdfs** :
http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/tech0031.html
Source page for JCNA if you can access it:
http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/index.php
After doing the initial writeup I discovered that you could use the second write up BUT NOT SPLIT the brake frames. You do this by using a 5" or 6" long drill bit which will work with the frames together. The swarf is a bit harder to clean out but no big deal. That way you don't have to use the tight hard line bends I needed for the Volvo calipers from the first procedure.
I've done this several times on my (66 FHC) and other SI XKEs so I know it works well. If you have any questions, write me and I'll try and answer them.
Best regards, Brian
I have done this and wrote it up as a pdf. You can find the writeup here **Look at both pdfs** :
http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/tech0031.html
Source page for JCNA if you can access it:
http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/index.php
After doing the initial writeup I discovered that you could use the second write up BUT NOT SPLIT the brake frames. You do this by using a 5" or 6" long drill bit which will work with the frames together. The swarf is a bit harder to clean out but no big deal. That way you don't have to use the tight hard line bends I needed for the Volvo calipers from the first procedure.
I've done this several times on my (66 FHC) and other SI XKEs so I know it works well. If you have any questions, write me and I'll try and answer them.
Best regards, Brian
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#17 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
I have also put Volvo four pot non vented callipers at the front. The pistons area are the same, two Volvo pistons are the same as one Dunlop. So the hydraulic pressure is the same but the brake pads area is much larger for the Volvo calliper. The price was like $350 for two callipers with pads.
I also put the front Dunlop pistons at the rear because they have a larger piston area compare to the original pistons. But I discovered that the rear wheels were locked in advanced to the front wheels so I have put back the original rear pistons. You don’t want the rear wheels be locked in advanced to the front. My car is by the way a 3.8 FHC.
Tjellvar Sweden
I also put the front Dunlop pistons at the rear because they have a larger piston area compare to the original pistons. But I discovered that the rear wheels were locked in advanced to the front wheels so I have put back the original rear pistons. You don’t want the rear wheels be locked in advanced to the front. My car is by the way a 3.8 FHC.
Tjellvar Sweden
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#18 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
I took a slightly diffetent route to get improved front brakes, and retrofitted xj12 four pots and vented discs to my S1.This is by no means plug and play though, and required the machining of new stub axles to accomodate the vented discs. The top caliper mount also requires repositioning to accept the bigger caliper; however once completed the braking system is still from the jaguar stable, and components are easy to source. As previously stated though, the reality is not what you would expect, as in the limitation with non abs cars, is the tyres not the brakes. Continious high speed braking would show improvements no doubt, but on the street, less so. As far as power is concerned, locking the front (and rear) from 70mph is possible very easily (as I found out last year when a car swerved into my lane doing a u turn on the M1) The thing is, in that situation, was I glad I had huge brakes up front, and sticky 205 tyres? You bet your ass I was, I was inches away from making the 2+2 into a swb car. I am a firm beleiver in better brakes, especially for old cars like ours.
Marty
Marty
Marty
S1 2+2
S1 2+2
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#19 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
I have Zeus 4 pot calipers grabbing modified BMW vented discs on my S1, which has S2 uprights. The calipers and discs were second hand but very little used. They werent a good fit, requiring a spacer to prevent the caliper fouling the wheel with the result that the disc isnt centred in the caliper.
But, the four pots pull the standard sized pads with much more force, such that the braking is noticeably better from all speeds, but most noticeable at high (70mh, officer!) speeds.
But, the four pots pull the standard sized pads with much more force, such that the braking is noticeably better from all speeds, but most noticeable at high (70mh, officer!) speeds.
Chris '67 S1 2+2
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#20 Re: Upgrading brakes on a Series 1
Those calipers are, on the face of it, a cheap “upgrade” as they are available used with uprights (no messing with stub axles) from any S3 XJ6/12 or earlier XJ12. The reason I’ve never used them on an E is the massive unsprung weight. They are the heaviest caliper/disc combo I have ever handled. This is less problematic on a heavier XJ - especially an XJ12 where they first appeared - but would adversely affect ride quality, especially on a 6 cyl E.
If anyone near me wants a pair for beer money let me know. I think that corner of the workshop is showing signs of subsidence...
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas
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