Early radiator

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SEJohnson95
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#41

Post by SEJohnson95 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:15 am

David, was that when the convoluted hose and 4lb pressure cap was done away with? Re Malcolm, as the other magazine editor, surely Philip would have corrected him if he'd thought it definitely wasn't right.

What is intriguing is that a supposedly original French car has this radiator, granted modifications were made to the engine but surely a less common radiator would have been fitted to the car if a new one was required, given that they would probably have used whatever they could find or was easily obtainable. If indeed these flat sided brass radiators were made in the states it seems like a lot of effort to get one in France. The fact that there are 6 or so of these on cars should be enough to set the ball rolling, yes it clearly wasn't wide spread but for them to appear on separate continents is peculiar. Someone will drag another 3.8 FHC out of a barn at some point, it still happens. If that has one of these radiators then one must begin to suspect something.
Simon Johnson
Postdoctoral Researcher, University of Nottingham
E-type Club magazine contributor
Chasing the dream of a S1 4.2 OTS, but plan on getting an E ASAP!
Lucky passenger in a 1962 FHC - See restoration thread

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Heuer
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#42

Post by Heuer » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:54 am

Rupert Sheldrake called that 'morphic-resonance' - the idea of inherited memory! Fascinating subject actually. However if you took a broken Marston radiator to any radiator specialist anywhere in the world and asked for a replacement what do you honestly think they would come up with? My guess would be a generic brass core with brazed side tanks and outlets to match the Marston in front of them. Doubt these artisan's would spend time debating the finer points of ID plates, finned or sculpted tanks. They would come up (even in France) with something like this:
Image

Starting any ball rolling when only 0.00038% of total production have been observed is, I would suggest, going to be up a very steep hill.
David Jones
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#43

Post by SEJohnson95 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:03 pm

A far steeper hill than an e types handbrake would hold, although that's not difficult :P you have to admit it does seem a bit fishy though, if they were all in America it could sort of be put to bed, but what is there one doing in France? I'd love to know the history of that.

Re the hose, I actually knew that. I was checking the correct details for my car in my copy of Clausager's book! Morphic resonance indeed... We all have to learn from somewhere!
Simon Johnson
Postdoctoral Researcher, University of Nottingham
E-type Club magazine contributor
Chasing the dream of a S1 4.2 OTS, but plan on getting an E ASAP!
Lucky passenger in a 1962 FHC - See restoration thread

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#44

Post by Heuer » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:46 pm

Actually if you look closely at the radiator from the French car you will see it differs from other reported ones in that it does not have the tall retaining studs at the top bracket.
Image

Jay Leno's "totally original" car with flat rad:
Image

Both look just as home made as the others and not something Jaguar would have allowed out of the factory gates. They were a major quality automotive producer not a kit car maker! The one in Richard's car is beautifully made and clearly a Jaguar specified product from either Marston or Covrad.

And if Morphic Resonance requires more proof a thread on J-L has been hijacked today to discuss this very same topic. :shock:
Last edited by Heuer on Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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steve3.8
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#45

Post by steve3.8 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:36 pm

I still have the brass tank Radiator that came with my June 64 861528, I cannot prove it is original only to say the car has been off the road since 1982 and photo's before dismantling. Had a look today and it is almost same as Richards but i would say mine is more specifically made for a 3.8, it has only one flat area pressed into the brass tank for the outlet. The bottom outlet is a cast brass item with the drain tap in , accurately made to fit the tank. It is also very heavy, 12kg/2 stone! There is TF P2091 1713 stamped into the flat steel top plate .

Looking at the radiator off Richards '62 car it has 2 flat pressing in both tanks to accommodate the 2 extra top hoses on the 4.2, that's nearly 2 years in front of the timeline , so I would say not original .

photos, one showing my 4.2 with the same tank pressing as Richards

Image


Image

Image
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Image
4.2 Rad
Last edited by steve3.8 on Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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64 3.8 fhc, 67 4.2 fhc

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PeterCrespin
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#46

Post by PeterCrespin » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:11 am

SEJohnson95 wrote: What is intriguing is that a supposedly original French car has this radiator.
Two problems with that statement:

'supposedly original' means nothing unless there is more than just opinion. Lots of cars are supposedly original but in practice nothing of the sort.
'this radiator' would require a direct comparison of that item and any other flat tank rad to see if they really were the same. I'd assume they aren't until such a comparison is made.

Having said that, the flat tank aftermarket rad made and sold by Terry's in some quantity in period, could easily enough have found its way over to France. The owner would probably have had to buy E-type bits overseas and once you're not buying at home then one overseas market is somewhat similar to any other, apart from shipping. I think Terry's have always had a small export side to their business. Plenty of assumptions there on my part of course, but I'm quite happy to be proven wrong on every count. The bit I'm not buying on the basis of opinion is that these crude flat sided concoctions were fitted on the production line. I'd need solid evidence before I'd swallow that.

Pete
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#47

Post by Heuer » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:07 am

Steve

Once again some superb information! If we compare your radiator with Richard's you can see the core's are totally different along with some of the tank scallops:
Image
Image

Image
Image

I found these on eBay for comparison:
"XK-E 3.8 radiator":
ImageImage

"XK-E 4.2 radiator":
ImageImage

Seems to confirm the one from Richard's car is a modified 4.2 radiator. It also looks like Steve's radiator may have been re-cored at some point.

The code is also intriguing and I can only suggest the TF stands for Trico-Folberth who also made the Reservac and header tanks amongst other things. The 'P' could be a year code which was widely used in the motor industry (e.g on SU's and Serck radiators). The top row look like constants whilst the bottom four numbers are irregular suggesting they changed sequentially.
Image

It would be good to have some more codes!
Last edited by Heuer on Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
David Jones
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#48

Post by Heuer » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:06 pm

Bob Stevenson has sent me these pictures of his brass square-tank radiator on #889076 (dispatched to France 21 October 1963) and it has a nicely done centred number stamp:
Image
Image
Image
Anybody know what the stamp means? I thought the '3' might stand for the Region - in this case 'Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur' - and the 7 28 5 is the date code (July 28th 1965).

The reason I am putting this here is that Bob's radiator is the very one Dr Tom Haddock photographed for his book and which may have (inadvertently) started the whole "later 3.8's were fitted with a brass radiator" conundrum!
Image

So two French cars with a similar square-tank radiator! I feel a conspiracy theory developing :roll:
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
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#49

Post by SEJohnson95 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:15 pm

Oooh, this is getting rather interesting. What are they saying on J-L? Alas the information provided here is enough proof for me (or Richard actually) and hence the car will look something like this when she goes back together:

Image

Image

You've probably guessed what we're opting for. :P I saw a Fosseway example on one of my visits to Paul Brown's place the other day (it was being installed in 850210) and they are very impressive, build quality is wonderful. Probably going to go with that.

Apologies for the photos, I'm just trying to be humorous :P In all seriousness though, we do want this car to be as correct as reasonably possible so the Marston replica is the way to go.
Simon Johnson
Postdoctoral Researcher, University of Nottingham
E-type Club magazine contributor
Chasing the dream of a S1 4.2 OTS, but plan on getting an E ASAP!
Lucky passenger in a 1962 FHC - See restoration thread

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andrewh
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#50

Post by andrewh » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:44 pm

This is what you want

Chassis. 860897. October 62 build

Image


Image
1962 3.8 Series One FHC

http://etype860897.blogspot.com/

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#51

Post by SEJohnson95 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:53 pm

Thanks Andrew, I'll send those pictures on to Richard. It's the best I could do at the moment as that example is eight times smaller! Your car is very close to ours, be it ours was one of the first with the cross pattern dash ( we have the original) all v interesting. Thanks for the info
Simon Johnson
Postdoctoral Researcher, University of Nottingham
E-type Club magazine contributor
Chasing the dream of a S1 4.2 OTS, but plan on getting an E ASAP!
Lucky passenger in a 1962 FHC - See restoration thread

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#52

Post by Geoff Green » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:24 am

While looking for correct location of loom strapping and various clips this Marston discussion began. Being the data nerd I am I went digging through photos. I was in the late 61 year on XK Data so I continued looking at radiators to the end of 3.8. Much to my surprise, of the LHD OTS cars with photos of identifiable radiators, a bit over 22% still have Marstons. There are about 5 different styles of brass radiators comprising the other identifiable ones. The last few are 881565, 881640 and 881822.

The surprise is due to my knowledge of service in the US for cars out of warranty. I believe Jaguar warranty was only 12 months back then. With the lack of changing the antifreeze, using the incorrect antifreeze and external damage I would expect a steady business in replacement radiators. I have a Marston holey one in the garage. After looking at many photos I am a firm believer all 3.8s had Marston radiators.

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peters3103
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#53

Post by peters3103 » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:48 am

The brass radiator in my 61 FHC has a tag on the right hand tank:
J&J RADS Ltd
No. A34012
J&J Radiators are a Coventry based company. I have no idea when it was fitted, the car is ex USA and was restored by Wilkinsons in 1989. I imported it into Australia in 2008.

Pete
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#54

Post by andrewh » Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:20 am

I know there has been some ill informed ( :D ) speculation that 3.8's didn't all have the alloy Marston radiator. Here is another old barn find with one fitted: http://www.xkedata.com/gallery/zoom/?id=318267
1962 3.8 Series One FHC

http://etype860897.blogspot.com/

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Sarthe72
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#55

Post by Sarthe72 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:53 am

If I'm not too late on this, may I refer you to my flat floor rebuild thread? I found the Fosseway product rather expensive too and bought this from Welsh in the USA:- http://www.welshent.com/product_info.php?sku=C16770ALU

I'm very pleased with it, and it cost roughly ?800 with FedEx and customs included. Incidentally, I was always of the opinion that this types of radiator existed until late 1963, so I sure have learned a few things here. Thanks all.

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Sean911s
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#56 Re: Brass Header Tank.

Post by Sean911s » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:48 am

My 63 Coupe has a Brass Header Tank, I have been searching the internet trying to find photos of it or any reference to other 63 or earlier cars having a Brass Tank and came across this which is nice to find because according to a number of other sources the tank should be like all the tanks being sold. I think many of the earlier E Types might have had the tanks changed if leaking and they couldn't be replaced. So, I will keep mine on. I also suspect the head was never painted and have seen early E Types with no paint on the head back in the early 80's. I had a 61 coupe in 1982 to 87 that also did not have a painted head. Maybe some days they ran out of paint!
Car# 888264 Manufactured Feb19 1963
Heuer wrote:
Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:07 am
Simon

I gave up reading Malcolm McKay's article in the E-Type magazine as soon as I read the words "Early in 3.8 production Jaguar replaced the cross-flow radiator with a similar brass unit ....." without any reference to supporting documentation :roll: All good fun exploring this subject on the Forum because we can bat opinions and sources around for days and maybe arrive at a consensus but when you go to print you need to be sure otherwise it becomes historical 'fact'. I am surprised Philip Porter allowed it given the level of detail he went to in his "E-Type Ultimate History" book.

Jaguar did document changes to the cooling system at cars #850657/879044/861091/888241 which involved a re-designed header tank, hose and filler cap but no mention of a change to a major component in either the June 1963 J30, Service Bulletins or Parts Bulletins. The radiator in Richard's car is a #C25070 (scalloped brass radiator) which was a super-cession part for #C16770 (Marston aluminium radiator) and listed in the 1965 Parts Bulletin. That radiator is a proper production item made by either Marston or Covrad and would have required drawings and press tooling, hence I was interested in any markings, so I think that one is firmly laid to rest. The controversy now centres on the square tank radiators of which six examples are known and seem to have been put together in a 'prototype' form of construction which could have been done in any back street shop with a brazing torch and some brass sheet.

Unfortunately the 3.8 brass radiator theory has now gained such currency it has become 'fact' despite them only being seen on less than a dozen of the 15,493 3.8's produced and no supporting documentation whatsoever. There is much evidence to support the opposite view however. Not sure whether this is driven by radiator vendors wanting a commercial advantage, owners wanting bragging rights or journalists out to prove themselves to be academics but it is certainly a disservice to future generations of E-Type enthusiasts. Maybe someone should write to the E-Type Magazine and offer some corrections?

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#57 Re: Early radiator

Post by Heuer » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:57 am

Owen Day has just sent me these photos of the Serck radiator in one of his very early cars:
Image
Image

Oddly the Serck date code 'L' is for 1958! For it to be on an E-Type I would expect one of these Serck date codes:
N - 1960
O - 1961
P - 1962
Q - 1963
R - 1964
S - 1965

So either this rad was modified from another car or Jaguar asked Serck to make one in 1958 as a prototype for the E-Type. Also unusual in that it is stamped as 'Serck London' whereas most of their radiators of the period were stamped 'Serck Radiators Ltd Birmingham'. They also had a brass disk with the month an year stamped on them. This one has the number '1' hand stamped on it which may support the prototype theory.

Serck radiator from a 1958 Land Rover:
Image
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red

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