Early radiator

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SEJohnson95
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#21

Post by SEJohnson95 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:52 pm

The offending item

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#22

Post by Heuer » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:31 pm

Fluted design as seen in the 4.2 cars - certainly not period. I had something similar in my FHC and sold it to Pete Crespin. The brass radiators, arguably fitted to the later 3.8's, are reported to be flat sided as in the picture from Tom Haddock's book.
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#23

Post by SEJohnson95 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:15 am

Interesting how xkedata shows up a lot of "original" cars with variations

See http://www.xkedata.com/gallery/zoom/?id=92252 for a supposedly original Marston and http://www.xkedata.com/gallery/zoom/?id=63095 too. Surely they can't all have gone bad and needed replacing? Can seek to find plenty of Marstons in the 62 cars but none after late 62. These are US cars incidentally.

Very similar rad to Richards in a 63 http://www.xkedata.com/gallery/zoom/?id=204299

http://www.xkedata.com/gallery/zoom/?id=121477

http://www.xkedata.com/gallery/zoom/?id=303069

http://www.xkedata.com/gallery/zoom/?id=32916

http://www.xkedata.com/gallery/zoom/?id=226670

http://www.xkedata.com/gallery/zoom/?id=190516

http://www.xkedata.com/gallery/zoom/?id=190516

Richard adds: "Thing is, I can't find any at all with original Marstons after 1962... the american ones have all kinds of "custom" rads, but I suppose spares must have been difficult..."

Still makes me wonder why the OTS in the factory fit thread has Marston, given it's a 64.

I am not trying to disprove a (your) theory here David I'm more curious about these now, surely not every car has had a new radiator fitted?

This is a confusing subject
Simon Johnson
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Chasing the dream of a S1 4.2 OTS, but plan on getting an E ASAP!
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#24

Post by mooney1el » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:40 am

Here are a couple of pictures of my 1964 LHD FHC showing the radiator which I believe has never been out of the car..although the label is missing from the top. It is 890248, produced April 1964.

Just adding to the "confusion"


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#25

Post by PeterCrespin » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:16 am

SEJohnson95 wrote:Interesting how xkedata shows up a lot of "original" cars with variations

Still makes me wonder why the OTS in the factory fit thread has Marston, given it's a 64.
This is a confusing subject
The reason the 64s you're reading about here have Marston radiators is because that's what reliable factory sources state is correct. It's also what even 'questioning' source admit cannot be disproved.

No offence, but it's only 'confusing' because you aren't content to accept what others are telling you. That's your prerogative, of course, but in your shoes I think the presence of documented 64 cars with the radiator that you or Ken Verity or anyone else thinks disappeared after 62, would remove all doubt.

Myth busted/doubt removed/confusion cleared up.

Unless you don't want it to be...

Here's the skinny: the Marston is a great piece of kit and a well-made one can last a long time if it's looked after. By virtue of its complex multiple-layered construction, the difference between a robustly-constructed one and an early-fail one with a tiny weak spot in one part of a seam is hard to detect. So the inherent risk of failure is far higher than a design with tanks made of a single brass pressing - just look at all those seams - someone with the time could work out the total crimped seal length compared to a normal rad..

That type of construction can fail early, having passed an initial QC assessment, so the replacement of many, early, is not really confusing is it? The eventual switch to conventional construction is easily understood on cost and reliability grounds, especially when cooling system caps went up in pressure. For all I know, a Marston can hardly ever survive someone innocently fitting a higher rate rad cap by mistake, which probably happened to many cars, to solve 'overheating' that even today is still regularly reported when people over-fill the expansion tanks.

Consider yourself led gently to the water. Whether you want to drink or not is up to you. FWIW, I'd do what you're doing and refit the brass rad. I just wouldn't waste cranium time being confused about what the records state plainly to be correct for 3.8s.

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#26

Post by SEJohnson95 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:39 am

I'm happy to accept the facts Pete, I suppose it's not really "confusing", and as you pointed out I do indeed find myself at the water's edge right now. Myth busted as per my favourite TV programme... I think Richard is going to tackle the radiator next so we'll see what happens when we've finished restoring it. I suppose for my own (limited) credibility you'd do well to take the shovel off me!
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#27

Post by Heuer » Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:15 am

The confusion abounds because practically every supplier of E-Type radiators says from 1962 they were fin-less or brass/copper construction:
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They can't however seem to agree on the style of the side tanks! I wonder where this supposed change gained currency? No smoke without fire so it must have come from somewhere. About the oldest established (1962) radiator refurbishment company I can find are Aaron http://www.aaronradiator.co.uk/ - maybe someone there knows?

Incidentally this is an interesting video of a jaguar radiator being rebuilt:
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#28

Post by Heuer » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:31 pm

I happened on some comments made by George Camp on this subject over on J-L a few moths back and I guess it is as definitive as we are going to get:

"In fact jaguar did issue a replacement unit in brass (C25070) to replace the Alum. unit (C16770) at some time in the 1960s. I checked the J12 books (Jaguar Master Parts Catalog issued annually) and found it to still be a service item in 1970 but the first mention of it is in the 1965 J12 catalog. The highest ''C'' number for 1963 is C21183. I checked the supply bulletins and while there is no specific mention of a replacement for the 3.8 E that entire mid 60s period had a reissue of almost every model with a revised radiator. ....... it is pretty darn clear that if you needed a radiator for your '63 or '64 E (and remember these were not home mechanics but dealers that needed the parts) they ordered the C16770 which superseded to a C25070 (brass but configured for the 3.8 car.)"

So sometime in 1965 the Marston radiator #C16770 was discontinued and was superseded by the #C25070 brass radiator. Confusingly if you search for #C25070 on the SNGB site it supersedes to #C16770 but that is shown as the brass scalloped radiator. :roll:

You can read the full rather heated J-L thread here: http://forums.jag-lovers.org/av.php?1662303o94
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#29

Post by 64etype » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:56 pm

It just happens that there is a current thread on J-L site called "Tricked out e-type". The first post (not the second) provides a link to a Jay Leno car, which he takes great pains to point out is an original, unmodified car. That car does not have a stacked aluminum radiator, but rather a flat sided brass unit as depicted in Haddock's book. Further, an original, unmodified French car sold at auction a couple of months ago had exactly the same radiator. I am personally aware of six cars with that radiator, including mine. I'm with Doctor Haddock when he states that factory records were, and are not all that great when it comes to documenting running changes. A recent thread on this forum regarding boot floor configurations is a good example http://tinyurl.com/lp27h6s . So are these radiators. Mr. Camp has certainly contributed a great deal toward documenting configuration, but the growing body of evidence on this subject conflicts with JCNA's closed minded conclusions.
Eric

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#30

Post by Heuer » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:54 pm

Leno's car is indeed nice but it even a cursory examination shows it is not original and has been modified over the years - black plastic SU dampers, different exhaust, different battery cables and, most likely, a different radiator.

It seems all of the square tank brass radiators reported (six of 12,500 LHD?) are on US cars and we do not see them on UK cars. Now this could because the cooler weather over here meant over-heating was not as prevalent and the Marston did its job. In the hotter US states customer complaints meant a solution was needed so Service Centres taking a standard brass core and brazing up some simple square tanks would have been an easy fix. The service replacement radiator George refers to has pressed tanks with a rounded profile and strengthening scallops, very much a Jaguar factory solution - no quick lash-ups, everything done by the book. If Jaguar did fit alternate radiators there would have been a purchase order for the materials, piece work hours or bought-in complete radiators in the archives (Mr Arthur Whittaker, Jaguar's chief buyer, insisted on full materials control) and it is to those archives Anders Clausagher turned to when trying to establish any provenance for the brass radiator theory. Obviously he could find no such evidence.

Even without access to factory records I have been able to find out who Jaguar outsourced production to, from spinners to commission plates, but despite months of trying I have not been able to track down who could have made the brass radiators for the E-Type. Jaguar had a contract with Marston and Sir William Lyons was a man of high integrity who kept faith with his suppliers so would not have countenanced going behind their back. Besides all the Marston Excelsiors had serial numbers for some reason and the start/end numbers seem to broadly match car numbers. What we need to know is why they were numbered sequentially when differentials, starter motors and other major components were not. I will continue to dig!
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#31

Post by 64etype » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:21 pm

Heuer wrote:.... and, most likely, a different radiator.

It seems all of the square tank brass radiators reported (six of 12,500 LHD?) are on US cars and we do not see them on UK cars. Now this could because the cooler weather over here meant over-heating was not as prevalent and the Marston did its job. In the hotter US states customer complaints meant a solution was needed so Service Centres taking a standard brass core and brazing up some simple square tanks would have been an easy fix.
You're speculating...as am I....and JCNA. The unmolested car that sold at auction in France a couple of months ago has the smooth sided brass radiator. They are clearly not all in the U.S....and they are all identical from what I can tell. Rest assured there will be more than six before this is over. I have personally laid eyes on four of the six...and that without making a serious effort.
Eric

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#32

Post by Heuer » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:19 pm

That French one would have been a LHD car probably imported from the USA!

What is not speculation is there are no Jaguar factory records supporting the commissioning, drawing, materials purchase, building, work hours allocation, piece work payment or outright purchase of the square sided radiator in a company where everything was tightly controlled by Mr Arthur Whittaker. Those records do however exist for the Marston and the later service replacement. There were only three major car radiator manufacturers in 1960's Britain - 'Marston Excelsior Ltd', whose history has already been detailed here, 'Serck' and 'Coventry Radiator and Presswork Ltd'.

Serck Radiators of Warwick Road, Greet, Tyseley, Birmingham.
1907 Peter Oscar Serck formed Motor Radiator Manufacturing Co
1919 Formed Serck Radiators Ltd, as a public company with ?200,000 capital of which he personally held more than half the shares, and was the Managing Director.
1922 about 180 people were employed at Serck, the radiators being made by hand, a tinsmith only having six cases and the tubes per week. 1924 The Company continued to concentrate on motor vehicle radiators, introducing some new designs to supplement the honeycomb block e.g. the film-block and fin-tube block.
1937 Aircraft radiators and oil coolers, condensers and tubes
1957 Serck Services were formed and in that year Serck Limited became the parent company of the Serck Group, with Serck Radiators becoming part of the group. Seeleys Road Works was completed in the same year.
1963 Motor Show exhibitor. Radiators.
1964 The very profitable H. O. Serck business was bought by the Serck Group when Herman Oscar retired.
1968 The last car radiator was produced, ending over 60 years involvement in the industry that made the Serck name famous. To reflect its activities more accurately, the Company?s name was changed from Serck Radiators to Serck Heat Transfer.
Image

Coventry Radiator and Presswork Ltd of Canley, Coventry, and Leamington Spa.
Many British cars and most of the UK?s commercial vehicles, tractors and stationary engines, would be equipped with Coventry Radiators which was enjoying an international reputation. In fact by the 1960s the company was the largest manufacturer of car radiators in the country, and British cars fitted with Coventry Radiators and Presswork parts were to be found in every country in the world; amongst them would be Austin, Daimler, Armstrong Siddeley, Rootes, Standard and Triumph. Those who live in the Midlands are well aware that car makers are mainly component assemblers, buying in most of the thousands of parts they need to put together to make the vehicles they sell.

1893 Business founded by F. T. Jackson
1915 Converted into a private company Coventry Radiator Co Ltd
1926 Name changed to Coventry Radiator and Presswork Co Ltd
1949 Holding company incorporated
1952 Public company incorporated as Coventry Radiator and Presswork Holdings Co Ltd
1955 Acquired by Associated Engineering Group
1960 Manufacturer of Dravo oil-fired space heater
1963 Motor Show exhibitor. Radiators
1972 The Covrad subsidiary of Associated Engineering developed the first low-cost aluminium radiator for car

It does surprise me Sir William chose a company that was not Coventry based for Jaguar radiators (Marston were in Leeds) and I do wonder whether the 4.2 radiators came from Covrad (work in progress) as their speciality was the pressing of side tanks and other fittings into complex shapes as seen:
Image
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Both the Serck and Covrad items are clearly marked with the makers name, date code and drawing or serial number. In fact almost every component on the E-Type is marked with a makers name stamp and usually dated (instruments, wiper motor, fan motor, battery etc etc) so I would expect no different from the brass square tank's.

So Eric if you think these square tank brass radiators were factory fitted you need to find out who made them for Jaguar rather than agonising about how many are to be found.

Simon - any makers name or number on the scalloped rad from Richard's car?
Last edited by Heuer on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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#33

Post by 64etype » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:28 pm

I'm not exactly "agonizing" over numbers...more like responding to your summary dismissal of a mere six cars. Numbers help illustrate that these were not simply one-off units as the "experts" flippantly contend.

The history on the French car was quite clear.

Yes, of course the origin of the brass radiators is key to helping solve the mystery. So I'm going to keep poking around and poking at the bear(s) until it's solved. I'm convinced these units were sourced by Jaguar whether as spares, original equipment, or both. Dr. Haddock didn't have your level of confidence in Jaguars documentation.

I seem to remember a metal tag on my brass radiator and will pull it out of storage when I get back to work on the car in September. I'll also send Jay Leno a request to check out the one on his car. Would be helpful if someone would do the same for the car in France....I have no idea how to identify the current owner...
Eric

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#34

Post by Heuer » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:18 pm

Eric

If it was this one: http://www.osenat.fr/html/fiche.jsp?id= ... 1&aff=1&r= then what is clear is it was modified to give more performance "Oswald, the mechanic who maintained his race cars, was asked to work on the lower end of the XK engine and lighten it further. The truth is we don't know the extent of his work ......" so may have included changing the radiator. Also Tom Haddock did not have access to the Jaguar archives, Anders Clausager does as he is employed as the JHT archivist.

Please let us know what you find regarding tags or markings and maybe contact some of the other owners who have posted on J-L for confirmation.
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#35

Post by 64etype » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:44 pm

Count on it.
Eric

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#36

Post by steve3.8 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:55 pm

After a bit of searching with interest from this discussion I found it's probably more than coincidence where the Radiators were sourced from. Sir William Lyon's first job after his apprenticeship aged 18 was as salesman for Sunbeam, John Marston owned the Sunbeam cycle, motorcycle and car company.
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collecti ... R_MBL1033/
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Marston_Excelsior
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunbeam_(car_company)
:wavegreatbritain: Steve3.8

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#37

Post by Dave K » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:23 pm

I can remember reading in one of my many E-Type books that it was not uncommon for the Marston radiators to fail while the car was being delivered or shortly after delivery if a stone shot up inside the engine bay, it could have been that the brass rads were fitted by dealers and not by Jaguar?

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#38

Post by Heuer » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:31 pm

Dave - The cars were under a factory warranty so why would dealers replace something at their own cost rather than simply order a free replacement from Jaguar?

Steve - Nice bit of research on the Lyons/Marston connection and it helps with understanding why Jaguar chose an out of area company. All about social connections!

If anyone has one of these brass square tank rads can you check it for any ID tags please. It would also be interesting to hear of any reported sightings on RHD cars. If not it suggests they were installed in country rather than at the factory.
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#39

Post by SEJohnson95 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:31 pm

Was reading quite an interesting debate and forgot entirely to reply!

David, we'll get a better idea of serial numbers etc once the paint is off, but I don't remember Richard seeing any anywhere. Gerry is still convinced it's the original rad but he's now trying to remember why when he bought the car.

Having read the article by Malcolm McKay in the August issue of the magazine he points out that in "early 63" the cooling system was updated. Richard's 3.8 is a late 62 but was not sold until May 63. During that time in a bid to shift her or having seen the problems the factory could have fitted the new cooling system? Equally they could I suppose have been trying out new ideas before the change took place. (Look at the 4.2, 1E20882, mid 65 you would imagine to have external vacuum pipes to the brake servo but indeed they are internally mounted in the bulkhead, we know it's the original shell, so the only logical explanation is that the car was pulled off the production line as they were trying the new pipes.

Regarding the "blanked off" connections referred to for the 4.2 rad, Richard sent me this

"The areas referred to as blanked off connections are simply flat areas at each corner of the rad. In this way the two headers can be identical and interchangeable, thus saving on the cost of tooling. This was a sensible approach, bearing in mind that the designers were trying to solve several issues at the same time and did indeed add extra hose connections later on the 4.2. They surely must have had this possibility in mind. It is conceivable that they considered simplifying the inlet manifold on the 3.8, but saved all the mods for the 4.2."
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#40

Post by Heuer » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:07 am

Simon

I gave up reading Malcolm McKay's article in the E-Type magazine as soon as I read the words "Early in 3.8 production Jaguar replaced the cross-flow radiator with a similar brass unit ....." without any reference to supporting documentation :roll: All good fun exploring this subject on the Forum because we can bat opinions and sources around for days and maybe arrive at a consensus but when you go to print you need to be sure otherwise it becomes historical 'fact'. I am surprised Philip Porter allowed it given the level of detail he went to in his "E-Type Ultimate History" book.

Jaguar did document changes to the cooling system at cars #850657/879044/861091/888241 which involved a re-designed header tank, hose and filler cap but no mention of a change to a major component in either the June 1963 J30, Service Bulletins or Parts Bulletins. The radiator in Richard's car is a #C25070 (scalloped brass radiator) which was a super-cession part for #C16770 (Marston aluminium radiator) and listed in the 1965 Parts Bulletin. That radiator is a proper production item made by either Marston or Covrad and would have required drawings and press tooling, hence I was interested in any markings, so I think that one is firmly laid to rest. The controversy now centres on the square tank radiators of which six examples are known and seem to have been put together in a 'prototype' form of construction which could have been done in any back street shop with a brazing torch and some brass sheet.

Unfortunately the 3.8 brass radiator theory has now gained such currency it has become 'fact' despite them only being seen on less than a dozen of the 15,493 3.8's produced and no supporting documentation whatsoever. There is much evidence to support the opposite view however. Not sure whether this is driven by radiator vendors wanting a commercial advantage, owners wanting bragging rights or journalists out to prove themselves to be academics but it is certainly a disservice to future generations of E-Type enthusiasts. Maybe someone should write to the E-Type Magazine and offer some corrections?
David Jones
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