S2 Brake servo wanted

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neil4444
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#1 S2 Brake servo wanted

Post by neil4444 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:52 pm

Hi, I am just in the process of ordering a new bodyshell sub-assembly for my 3.8 S1 OTS and have been advised to consider installing the appropriate pedal box to accept the improved S2 brake servo (rather than the current S1 bellows). Question is, where can I find an S2 brake servo as all the companies I have found only provide them on an exchange basis. I would much appreciate any advice.

Neil4444

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#2

Post by MarkE » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:41 am

You can try RM & J Smith in Crew (01270 820885) (rmj@rmjsmith.fsnet.co.uk). They supplied me with quite a few goodies for my S1. However, if you have to change the pedal box as well, that will be a bit more tricky to source.

It may be worth getting other opinions regarding getting rid of the bellows servo, and finding out if they can now be rebuilt. Classicar Automotive in Cheshire provide a great service for overhauling servos, callipers etc., and they would at least tell you if your servo can be overhauled. You can get hold of them on 01625 860 910 or sales classicbrakes.co.uk.

I?ve certainly seen plenty of S1s still with their bellows servo, and as a unique feature of the early cars, it?s nice to see and must enhance their value. If all cars are updated to the optimum spec, they do lose something of their original appeal?to me at least!

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#3

Post by neil4444 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:29 am

Mark,

Thanks for info. I must admit it is somewhat of a dilemma as to whether to replace the bellows with the later servo type. I'm all for originality but also want to make sure the car is a safe and enjoyable as possible. I suppose I'm being led by the many opinions I've read concerning the brake fade on the 3.8 S1's. I am entering this restoration project not having driven an E-Type before so its difficult for me to decide which way to go.

Appreciate your advice !

Neil4444

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#4

Post by 1954Etype » Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:53 am

neil4444 wrote:Mark,

Thanks for info. I must admit it is somewhat of a dilemma as to whether to replace the bellows with the later servo type. I'm all for originality but also want to make sure the car is a safe and enjoyable as possible. I suppose I'm being led by the many opinions I've read concerning the brake fade on the 3.8 S1's. I am entering this restoration project not having driven an E-Type before so its difficult for me to decide which way to go.

Appreciate your advice !

Neil4444
Mark,

there is another way. On the early S1 4.2 cars, they fitted an intermediary pedal box which fitted directly onto the 3.8 bulkhead. The vacuum pipes were attached to the outside of the bulkhead (later the bulkhead was modified to take the pipes inside). The downside is that these boxes are expensive (as they are quite rare) and I have seen them going for ?700 at Stoneleigh (not including the master cylinders for the brakes and clutch).

I would not expect to pay more than ?200 for a later pedal box (note that the later Series 1 are the same as the Series 2).

If you are going to Stoneleigh at the end of the month, I know that Stu (one of the vendors) had a couple on his stand but that was in October.

On a final point, I would urge you to investigate why you don't want to use your original bellows as there are a large number of drivers who swear that once set up properly, they work fine - the key is getting the vacuum correct. Also, if you are going to the expense of doing the restoration properly, you will seriously reduce the value of your car if you carry out modifications (however good) that are irreversible such as a bulkhead change.

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#5

Post by MarkE » Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:01 pm

Totally agree with the last para. My understanding is that the parts required to restore the bellows servos weren't available for a long time, and as many were starting to leak fluid through, they developed a poor reputation. I'm sure I've read somewhere that the parts are now available (a couple of years ago) and when rebuilt properly are absolutely fine.

The servo won't make any difference to brake fade. They either work or they don't. When a servo fails it may feel like brake fade though! To improve the brakes on an S1 you can fit different callipers, a simple nut and bolt job which is completely reversable.

If you really want originality then insist upon it. Any good restoration company will provide that service, and if they don't, perhaps you may question whether they are working in your interest or theirs. You can always upgrade later if you feel the need to, safe in the knowledge that you're starting off from an original base.

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#6

Post by neil4444 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:33 pm

Many thanks for your helpful responses. There's no question as to the reputation of the people doing the bodyshell work. They simply asked me whether I wanted to keep the standard 3.8 S1 bellows or upgrade to the 4.2 servo as they would need to know up front. As stated earlier I'm all for keeping originality but in this case wasn't really sure which way to go as I didn't know enough about the subject. You've helped me reach a quick decision to keep with original S1 set up so I can order my bodyshell Monday morning - yippee !!!

Thanks again !


Neil4444

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#7

Post by 1954Etype » Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:28 pm

neil4444 wrote:Many thanks for your helpful responses. There's no question as to the reputation of the people doing the bodyshell work. They simply asked me whether I wanted to keep the standard 3.8 S1 bellows or upgrade to the 4.2 servo as they would need to know up front. As stated earlier I'm all for keeping originality but in this case wasn't really sure which way to go as I didn't know enough about the subject. You've helped me reach a quick decision to keep with original S1 set up so I can order my bodyshell Monday morning - yippee !!!

Thanks again !


Neil4444
Neil,

who is building your bodyshell?

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#8

Post by neil4444 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:11 pm

Robeys.

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#9

Post by 1954Etype » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:46 pm

neil4444 wrote:Robeys.
I would be very interested in knowing how you get on with it as I have had 2 built by Hutsons in the past.

I can let you have a copy of my checklist if you think it would be useful as there are so many things that have to be trial fitted before committing to paint.

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#10

Post by neil4444 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:56 pm

Checklist would be fantastic. All information greatly received at this stage. I have spoken to Hutsons too.

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#11

Post by kingzetts » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:50 pm

My 3.8 has been converted to the later 4.2 brakes using the original 3.8 pedal box (by a previous owner) and it works fine.

The mod does not need a new pedal box.
The later type master cylinder replaces one of the tandem cylinders and it is necessary to modify (lock) the balancing yoke linkage between the brake pedal and the twin master cylinders as otherwise with one cylinder missing the linkage will pivot rather than press the remaining cylinder). This should be done by someone competent, obviously, but is a lot cheaper than sourcing a 4.2 pedal box and can be done reversibly, I think.

The bracket holding the 4.2 master cylinder to the pedal box bolts right on in place of the one holding the twin cylinders - I found one of these brackets at Stoneleigh last autumn for a tenner - or I think the original bracket can easily be modified to suit.

Two vacuum lines and a brake pipe need to be run across between the new remote servo/cylinder on the LH footwell face, and the vacuum valve etc on the RH side. As mentioned earlier on the first 4.2s these simply run around the bulkhead over the top of the opening for the bellhousing - it was only later that the bulkhead was modified for these pipes to run inside along with the heater pipes.

So although involved, it is a reversible mod (except for the holes in the LH footwell to mount the servo and brackets for the pipes across the bulkhead).

Whether worthwhile or not is another matter - you won't increase the braking effort or the braking performance, you'd have to uprate calipers and/or pads and/or discs for this, so its just a matter of the level of assistance from the bellows servo vs the later larger conventional servo.

For what its worth I've heard the guys at CMC express the view that the 3.8 setup is as good as the 4.2 WHEN PROPERLY SET UP, and also that they have another way of tackling the issue by fitting two small servos on the 3.8 tandem masters.

In summary I guess my advice would be to go for the 3.8 bellows setup to begin with, but try uprating the front calipers as others have suggested as a first step. If you really don't like it change later on.
John '62 S1 OTS

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#12

Post by Heuer » Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:59 pm

" but is a lot cheaper than sourcing a 4.2 pedal box and can be done reversibly, I think."

As if by magic, one appears on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0346522865
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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#13

Post by harryetype » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:18 pm

I can't add anything that's not already been said, however over the years people have slated the bellows system when the fault actually lies with the Dunlop callipers.

I would describe the standard set up as wooden, from thirty to zero your foot is planted into the bulkhead as the car in fron approaches.

I like driving both standard and upgraded 3.8's but I think if I had to choose I would upgrade the calipers and leave the rest standard. as has already been said it can easily be put back to standard.
Harry

My Dads old V12 TOM 32
1968 Roadster

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#14

Post by adam » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:52 pm

Hi my 3.8 has got coopercraft front brakes with the bellows set up. i think the brakes feel good

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