4.2 and high torque starter issue

Talk about the E-Type Series 2

Topic author
thexkeprocess
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:57 am
Location: Toronto
Canada

4.2 and high torque starter issue

#1

Postby thexkeprocess » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:43 am

Ok here’s the issue

I’ve got a 4.2 69 OTS,

Recently installed. 4.2 from 81 xj6 to replace the unfortunately ended old 4.2

Followed Crespin’s article on the swap to the letter

All worked out very well without surprises except for today

To be clear the high torque starter I installed was working flawlessly for about a year in my old engine

I used the flywheel and transmission bell housing from my old engine and the starter and installed on the replacement engine.

Further my old clutch and pressure plate were also reused and bolted right up to the replacement engine and fly wheel as well.

Th problem is when I turn the key , the starter just spins !!

It does not engage the fly wheel teeth

When I installed the starter I used same bolts and spacer as before as well

I believe there is no adjustment to the location of the starter relative to the flywheel teeth given the two fastner bolts and the spacer

What did I do wrong?

Am hoping that I am wrong, please let me know if there is adjustment in the starter

Given I used the same set up I would assume that there would be no difference

Otherwise the only other explanation is the starter is broken

Any thoughts or comments

Mark
Regards,
Mark

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 2859
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

Re: 4.2 and high torque starter issue

#2

Postby mgcjag » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:56 am

Hi Mark.....did you ever have the starter working on your old set up......the starter only bolts to the bellhousing..was your bell and flywheel from a 4.2 or 3.8......starters can be for either 3.8 or 4.2 set up.. Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
thexkeprocess
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:57 am
Location: Toronto
Canada

Re: 4.2 and high torque starter issue

#3

Postby thexkeprocess » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:16 am

To reply

To be clear the high torque starter I installed was working flawlessly for about a year in my old engine

I used the flywheel and transmission bell housing from my old engine and the starter and installed on the replacement engine.

Further my old clutch and pressure plate were also reused and bolted right up to the replacement engine and fly wheel as well.

All are from a 4.2 ie old engine is a 4.2. Replacement engine is a 4.2 and all parts are 4.2
Old set up is identical to new except starter won’t engage to the fly wheel teeth, starter spins freely with no weird noises or grinding

Mark
Regards,
Mark

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 2859
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

Re: 4.2 and high torque starter issue

#4

Postby mgcjag » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:10 am

Hi Mark....on your old set up there would probably have been a spigot plate between starter and bellhouseing..have you fitted it http://www.sngbarratt.com/CatalogueProd ... 48&a=15827 Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


phil.dobson@mac.com
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:26 am
Location: Surrey
Great Britain

Re: 4.2 and high torque starter issue

#5

Postby phil.dobson@mac.com » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:58 pm

i just wrote a detailed response which seems to have disappeared into space. However in summary my experience is only with the powerlite version whereby the plate that is being referred to should be used in the default case. HOWEVER if the pinion is not reaching the flywheel (assuming it is moving towards it) then you can try with the plate removed. This is suggested in the instructions I received as a potential fix to manufacturing tolerances.
My understanding is that he starter will only spin when the pinion has moved forward and made the appropriate internal electrical connection. Not sure what make and model you have.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
thexkeprocess
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:57 am
Location: Toronto
Canada

Re: 4.2 and high torque starter issue

#6

Postby thexkeprocess » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:02 pm

All,

When there is power to the starter, there is really no click or sound that could be interpreted as engaging the fly wheel teeth. The motor is running and seems to run strong but no engagement.

What is really strange is that I've used the same flywheel, bell housing and starter. There should not be differences or changes in gaps. I do have the spacer plate installed.

I believe the starter is a nippondenso type. There are two wires connected to it. There is small but thick red-white wire with a female electrical fitting (thicker wire) plugged in just next to the main power connection, the other is the main power cable coming from the battery.

I disconnected the smaller wire red white wire and the starter wont run. Would this indicate that if the the starter gear does not move forward then the motor wont run?

I am trying to determine if the starter gear actually moves forward toward the flywheel. The sound it makes does not indicate that at all when powered. Starts fine and with a lot of power and no grinding, or screeching sounds just a smooth start.

It appears that i will have to take it out and have it tested.

Any other suggestions,

Thanks for all the information.

Mark
Regards,
Mark

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


64etype
Posts: 342
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:07 pm
Location: Texas, USA
United States of America

Re: 4.2 and high torque starter issue

#7

Postby 64etype » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:38 pm

I think I have the same style starter, which suffered what appears to be a motor failure last Friday. I took it off the engine and pulled the cover plate on the solenoid portion. Looks like when you turn the key to "start", the solenoid pulls a plunger inward about a half inch whereupon a contactor ring on the plunger hits the two main motor contacts. The pinion moves about 1/4 inch inward during this plunger action, but that's not what accounts for most of the movement of the pinion into the engaged position on the ring gear. This is accomplished by a machined spiral groove in the pinion drive assembly....basically just like the old Bendix arrangement where the gear flings outward. I suspect that initial 1/4" movement of the pinion is to "ease" the gear up toward the flywheel whereupon the spiral machined groove takes over. Anyway, it appears that it's possible to have a stuck "Bendix" portion of the drive system. The electrical portion of the solenoid would still work and close the motor contacts....but you wouldn't hear a "click" when the pinion goes forward. Regardless, I think the starter has to come out. I'm taking mine to a shop to have the motor checked. Probably a waste of time an money.
Eric

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Series1 Stu
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:26 pm
Location: Shropshire
Great Britain

Re: 4.2 and high torque starter issue

#8

Postby Series1 Stu » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:08 pm

I agree with the diagnosis above. The pre-engaged pinion is probably not running up it's helix. Either that, or your flywheel mounting face on the crankshaft is a lot further forward than it was on the other engine, which I think is unlikely.

I also believe that some after market starters don't necessarily have the tooth pitch of the pinion properly matched to the pitch of the ring gear, which causes excessive and unusual loads on the mechanism.

Although of absolutely no help here, just an interesting observation. Every single time that I've rebuilt an engine I have, without exception, had to replace or rebuild the starter motor. The tightness of the engine often shows up the weaknesses in the starter motor.

Regards
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'94 X300 XJR basket case

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


64etype
Posts: 342
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:07 pm
Location: Texas, USA
United States of America

Re: 4.2 and high torque starter issue

#9

Postby 64etype » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:35 am

As I mentioned on the companion thread over on J-L, 100% new versions of the Nippondenso starters are being produced by a company called Rare Electrical (marketed by Walmart in the U.S.). They list a version for each flywheel (3.8 and 4.2), although the clocking of the mount is suspect for the E type application. Anyway, it's a possible source for this type of starter...definitely for the sedans. Apparently the source of old Toyota units has dried up in domestic wrecking yards. Good thing as I believe many of these "remanufactured" units are clapped out junk....mine included. Anyway, this is a potential new source. I will likely swap my gear reduction section (with correct clocking) to the new motor/solenoid section....if they didn't make any changes to the castings. FYI
Eric

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Mark Gordon
Posts: 774
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:33 pm
Location: Burke, Virginia
United States of America

Re: 4.2 and high torque starter issue

#10

Postby Mark Gordon » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:23 pm

I still have my Lucas starter, which AFAIK is original and has never been rebuilt. It works perfectly even after an engine rebuild. This thread has convinced me that if it ever dies, I will do my everlovin' best to get it rebuilt, even if it only lasts another 51 years.
Mark

67 OTS 1E14988, 2002 VDP

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Return to “Series 2”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests