Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

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Hugo
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#21 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by Hugo » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:23 pm

Why is a metal washer used in the needle valve instead of a fibre one? I don't know, but I think I'd replace it with a fibre washer anyway. What kind of metal were they?
I do like the slotted bottom holes in the carbs - that's a neat idea.
Hugo Miller - rebuilding an imported Series II OTS & converting to RHD

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#22 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by mgcjag » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:10 am

Hi Catnip.....whats your name...please try to put it in the signature area with your car model...re your timing being out..you might have already done this.....you will see from you first photo that the timing pointer is adjustable...so you really want to check the timing and set the pointer if required....number 6 front piston up to the top of its compression stroke then check the pointer is on the tdc mark....Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc

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#23 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by Hugo » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:28 am

Tell me - WHY did Jaguar number their cylinders backwards?
Hugo Miller - rebuilding an imported Series II OTS & converting to RHD

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#24 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by mgcjag » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:55 am

Hi Hugo...lets not hijack Catnips thread with off topic discussions.....have heard its a hangover from the aircraft industry......please start a new post if needed...thanks.. Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc

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#25 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by 42south » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:55 am

Hi Catnip
that little pipe under the carb is the vacuum pickoff for the vacuum retard unit on the distributor. It was fitted in an attempt to meet US emissions regulations. This was normally on a rear carb.
I would block it off, and also the retard capsule on the distributor. you can tell its a retard capsule by the inlet pipe on it pointing to the rear of the car. This was also supposed to help emissions by retarding the ignition on the overrun and at idle. It makes the car run hotter, and hurts fuel consumption, you don't need it.
At some stage look at fitting a vacuum advance module on the dizzy. There is lots of info on the forum.
Cheers
Mark Brown
1971 S3 Etype, now sold, sadly.

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#26 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by catnip » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:49 pm

Hugo - The metal washer on the needle valve was quite soft and pliable. We replaced these with fibre washers. The new needle valves from Barratts are done up with a 13mm spanner, but the old ones are not imperial or metric (a 13mm will do if very careful).

HOWEVER, fuel leaked out of both carbs with the new needle valve - really leaked!

We have since checked the float levels were correct - but also slightly adjusted the float arm to ensure more surface area of the float is on the fuel - the theory being this will put more pressure on the shut-off needle valve. We have also put the original needle valves back in (with fibre washers). We were thinking that the cheapo Chinese fuel pump may be producing excessive fuel psi on the Stromberg carbs. I know I said this before, but all seems dry at present.

Delicate use of a mirror, torch and making the float chamber bolts a cross-head made for easier assembly/disassembly of float chamber.

42sth - Thanks for the steer about that pipe, I suspected it had to a for a vacuum somewhere. I will block it off.

Steve - thanks for the timing clarification. Good point. I will speak to my helper about this today.

BTW - very bespoke design of the air intake filters for each carb. The air intakes have been made from chrome food tins (with removable drilled lids). The air filter itself is made of a circular green brillo pad sandwiched between two metal gauze sheets!Rubber gaskets hold this all together. Previous owner was a mechanical genius.

Not sure about what sort of air flow this produces (too much or too little?)

Image

Really really hope to fire engine up this afternoon........
Dan
E-Type Series 2 OTS 1970 (76k miles)
Mk2 3.8 OD 1964 (48k miles)
XJS 5.3 1978 (24k miles)
XK8 Coupe 1996 (32k miles)
XKR Convertible 2010

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#27 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by Hugo » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:06 pm

Brillo pads? You don't want to be sucking any of that stuff into the engine!
Hugo Miller - rebuilding an imported Series II OTS & converting to RHD

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#28 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by Series1 Stu » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:22 pm

That's interesting, Mark.

I hadn't realised that vacuum retard modules had been used on XK engines. Probably only for USA, I guess.

Every day is a school day.

Regards
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109

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#29 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by catnip » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:04 pm

Update after an interesting afternoon......

By the way, when I said Brillo pads, I meant the green scouring pads that you buy in packs.

There is a vacuum pipe fitted on the distributor.
I sealed off the exposed pipe on the front carb.
Fuel leak test with ign on - no leaks, hurrah.

Engine then fired up and allowed to warm up to normal temperature. Quite rough and lumpy.
We followed the procedure on page 96 of Haynes Owner's Workshop Manual to tune and adjust the Stromberg CD2 carbs. It is interesting that no mention of mixture adjustment is made - presumably because there is none on these carbs.

Results improved things slightly. I am assuming that the front carb delivers fuel/air to the front three cylinders, whose exhaust pipe outlet is the left hand one when looking at the back of the car.

Holding both hands against the exhaust pipes showed that the left one was running smoothly, but the right one was running roughly (with several pops) plus it was much cooler.

Small carb adjustments then followed, resulting in the exact opposite effect from the exhaust pipes. It all seems quite sensitive. However, I can now run the car at idle with no choke - something that would have resulted in engine stall before carb refurb.

We had previously noticed that both idle screws were fully screwed in. These were adjusted.

There is still more tuning to do.....

All the above was done without the air filters off. We wanted to get access to the dashpot pistons. I am assuming the mixture may get richer when these are on. One scouring pad or two ? :lol: We will also take it for a test drive.

Other issues ......

It is not possible to measure engine revs, since the rev meter is bouncing around full scale deflection - another job.

Oil was seen to be leaking out of oil filler cap. With engine off, the O ring was quite hard and deformed - new ring required.

Droplets of oil (almost like condensation) on black rubber pipe between brake fluid container and brake mechanism in engine.

MORE WORRYINGLY, I noticed that the ignition switch barrel to the right of the steering wheel is VERY hot. This was not due to the fan heater, since localised parts were not hot. The barrel has been loose for a while and I have to sometimes hold the outer locking ring while turning the key. I can only assume I have a loose connection somewhere at the back, causing the heating or excessive current is being drawn by something. How would I get a new ignition switch (surely there must be ID and security checks to go through)?

Thanks for continuing help and more updates soon....
Dan
E-Type Series 2 OTS 1970 (76k miles)
Mk2 3.8 OD 1964 (48k miles)
XJS 5.3 1978 (24k miles)
XK8 Coupe 1996 (32k miles)
XKR Convertible 2010

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#30 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by mgcjag » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:22 pm

Hi Dan...start a new post re the ignition switch....has been talked about before so a search should bring up some info..Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc

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#31 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by Hugo » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:56 pm

If you're lucky, you might just have a poor connection inside the ignition switch which is getting hot due to the resistance. If you're unlucky, you might have a semi-short somewhere, but whatever is causing it should also be getting hot. If you can run an ammeter off the battery that should give you a clue. I think the coil alone should draw about 4-6 amps.
With regard to the carbs, there are two factors at work; the idle mixture in each carb and the idle throttle opening in each carb. The latter is quite easy to set up with a piece of thin hose; one end shoved in the mouth of the carb and the other shoved in your ear. They should give an equal amount of 'hiss'.
I know absolutely nothing about Strombergs, which is as much as I want to know, so how you set the mixture at idle I have no idea.
Take a look at the plugs - that should give you some idea. they should all be the same colour, and that should be a sort of brownish-grey. If they're whitish-grey you are too weak, & if they're black you're too rich.
Hugo Miller - rebuilding an imported Series II OTS & converting to RHD

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#32 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by 42south » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:20 pm

hi Catnip
I see your carbs have the temperature compensator fittings on the side, the whiteish plastic cover. Did you overhaul or do anything to these? They can be a source of a vacuum leak. It should have a small tube out the top of the metal fitting for vacuum, if you haven't overhauled it, blank this off. Its function was to allow a small amount of fuel to bypass the butterfly on overrun to prevent lean mixture and exhaust popping on deceleration. You can safely blank this off.
There is plenty of info on the site if you decided to overhaul these, quite complicated and not really necessary.
The issue of moisture on the brake reservoir hose has also been covered extensively on the forum. It may be due to using the wrong grade of hose. this can apply to some of the hose sold for the job by the usuals.
Search for sweating brake hose or similar and you will find the answer.
Unless your carbs are very different you can adjust the mixture by using the special tool down the top of the carb. You remove the black damper fitting and insert the tool which locks in place down the center of the carb and allows you to move the needle up or down. Small adjustments are the way to go, around a quarter turn at a time, then run for a while. The tool is available from the usuals.

Cheers
Mark Brown
1971 S3 Etype, now sold, sadly.

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#33 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by catnip » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:53 pm

Latest update......

Car now reassembled with bespoke air filters attached (scouring pad filters cleaned!).
Carbs attempted to be balanced as much as possible. Left hand exhaust (front carb) giving nice constant pressure against hand at above warm temperature. Right hand exhaust (rear carb) was irregular and colder - now tweaked to be more like left one - still not quite the same.
However, tick over is now nice and smooth with no choke, compared to before.

We still think it's running a bit weak - experienced mechanic who got the car back on the road says mixture cannot be changed. Still a nagging doubt in my mind - if only I could get that really really stiff brass nut out from the float chamber. It's so stiff, I feel I might break something. The SNG carb service kit came with new mixture kit!

BTW - temperature compensator has not been touched.

Took the car out for a test drive......

It feels much smoother almost like it;s not struggling anymore. Much less popping from exhaust on deceleration. Acceleration is better. On returning to the garage we found that the small rubber cap connected to the vertical small pipe on the cylinder head breather had blown off.

So that's about as good as we can do with the current set up.

Additional information:
1. Cylinder head breather casing removed and gauze filter inspected. Hardly dirty. Discovered a thread which indicates the casing may be the wrong orientation. That would explain why I found it hard to get the pipe to the carbs difficult to fit to the breather.
2. Found a thread which states the alignment marks on the Stromberg tops should be aligned - they were not. Easy to get wrong but not sure what difference this physically makes.
3. I discovered a photo album from my father in-law which he took after his initial rebuild to original spec. It clearly shows black hot air duct going over top of engine going in to exhaust manifold. Other end goes via a hose to a large black air intake (just like on the SNG web site for export/emissions cars). So at some point he has stripped all this off (including secondary inlet manifold) and put his biscuit tin air intake mod on - I presume in an attempt to increase power? I'm wondering if I can find all the parts he took off, if I can return it to how it was meant to be.

Other issues need attending now, like non-standard ignition switch and new oil leak.
Dan
E-Type Series 2 OTS 1970 (76k miles)
Mk2 3.8 OD 1964 (48k miles)
XJS 5.3 1978 (24k miles)
XK8 Coupe 1996 (32k miles)
XKR Convertible 2010

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#34 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by johnetype » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:58 am

catnip wrote: 3. I discovered a photo album from my father in-law which he took after his initial rebuild to original spec. It clearly shows black hot air duct going over top of engine going in to exhaust manifold. Other end goes via a hose to a large black air intake (just like on the SNG web site for export/emissions cars). So at some point he has stripped all this off (including secondary inlet manifold) and put his biscuit tin air intake mod on - I presume in an attempt to increase power? I'm wondering if I can find all the parts he took off, if I can return it to how it was meant to be.
I can understand why your father in law has done what he did to the inlet manifold and it's sensible but may have had unintended consequences. I have the same original arrangement on my car and as you are close you're welcome to come and see the set up on my car for comparison. PM me if you wish.

John
John

1969 Series 2 FHC

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Herzeg
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#35 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by Herzeg » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:39 pm

Having converted my LHD to RHD and put on SU's I may have some of the parts you need. I definately have the black air duct that goes over the engine.

Let me know if you need anything and I'll have a rummage.

John
1969 S2 OTS

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#36 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by catnip » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:57 pm

Thanks for your very kind offer Herzeg.

Apologies for slow reply - non related issues have got in the way.

I guess the question is whether to leave the set up as is (biscuit tins included) or try to revert back to the original set up (photos below from 1988)...

Image

Current set up is as below...
Image

I assume these bits may still be in the garage roof somewhere. The photo also shows that the secondary manifold air intake is fitted (something he has since removed). I still have this but it may need an overhaul.

If I go back to original, I may well take you up on your offer if you PM me with what you want for them.

In the meantime:

I am fitting a new Lucas ignition switch to replace the one that was getting very hot. Heatshrink sleeving will protect the contacts.

I noticed the coil terminals were a bit loose, so I have bought a new sports coil. This came with associated ballast resistor. My old ballast when measured with a ohm meter was flicking between open circuit and a few ohms as I carefully shook it (I am familiar with Z=R+jX).

Hope this might help my erratic full scale deflection tachometer readings, since this gets its power through the ballast.

The original orientation of my oil breather casing was as below.

Image

I decided to inspect/clean the breather gauze. I was surprised to find it had a metal plate with a slit and dome shape below.

Image

The gauze itself was not that dirty (I could see light through it)
Image

but I got a new one anyway. Now depending on if revert back to Variation 3 air intake or keep with the biscuit tin air filter, will determine what orientation I put this back on. Different web sites have the breather casing in different ways up.

Do I do this ......
Image
Image

or this.........
Image
Image
?

BTW, no-one seems to supply the front breather gasket, so I got two rear ones. I hope the lack of joiner in the first one (see SNGB site) won't be a problem.

If I decide to block off the carb inputs from the oil breather, I'll still need to vent the crankcase. Probably best to block off the smaller outlet on the oild breather casing and run the larger output to a puke tin (currently not fitted on the car).

Having recently bought the Owner's Manual for the car, I have found that the engine is a 9:1 compression ratio, which requires RON 98 unleaded petrol. Currently, the fuel tank is full of the standard stuff :oops:

I noticed in the current breather set up, there is a small metal cylinder in the branch from the breather casing to the two carbs.

Image

This is weird, since it would seem to block the flow - or is it some blow back protector?

All the above, continued learning curve and input from you sages is good fun - just wish I didn't have a day job that got in the way.
Dan
E-Type Series 2 OTS 1970 (76k miles)
Mk2 3.8 OD 1964 (48k miles)
XJS 5.3 1978 (24k miles)
XK8 Coupe 1996 (32k miles)
XKR Convertible 2010

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catnip
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#37 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by catnip » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:01 pm

BTW,

Bumped into a C-Type owner at Prescott Hill Climb yesterday. He said he has put his breather case on the wrong way round deliberately - he has no smaller outlet pipe though.
Dan
E-Type Series 2 OTS 1970 (76k miles)
Mk2 3.8 OD 1964 (48k miles)
XJS 5.3 1978 (24k miles)
XK8 Coupe 1996 (32k miles)
XKR Convertible 2010

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#38 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by catnip » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:49 pm

Going slightly off topic, but last night I fitted a new sports coil and ballast resistor. Engine not tested yet.

BTW - I am also in the process of trying to get a 5 litre V8 Chevrolet engine going in a Owens Flagship boat that's been sitting in a field for 40 years. The engine turns over on the starter motor nicely. Next job is to get sparks and fuel active. I noticed that inside the distributor, there are a pair of points. Never seen that before.

Back to the E-Type.....Also bought some Cohline 2337 hose to cure the sweating brake and clutch hose problem.

I turned the Stromberg carb tops 90 degrees clockwise as well, to ensure the alignment marks now line up. Not sure if this makes any difference?

Regarding the carbs, I am seriously thinking of leaving the car as is now with the exception of replacing the air intakes (old biscuit tin lids) and blocking off the oil breather input to the carbs and just diverting oil breather output to a can.

I have found the original secondary inlet manifold. It is in pretty good condition. I currently have no plans to put this back on - unless there is a very good reason.

I discovered that since my father in-law removed this, he had to do a DIY job on the accelerator cable assembly. There is a bit of free play in the accelerator before the engine picks up, which I will adjust out.

Question: Can anyone recommend two good air intake assemblies to buy for the two Strombergs?

Entrance hole is 1.5 inches diameter for each carb. Do they come so they can mate to the existing 3 holes in each carb?

Thanks again for your continued advice and help.

BTW - over the winter, I plan to get the bumpers rechromed ............
Dan
E-Type Series 2 OTS 1970 (76k miles)
Mk2 3.8 OD 1964 (48k miles)
XJS 5.3 1978 (24k miles)
XK8 Coupe 1996 (32k miles)
XKR Convertible 2010

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#39 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by Hugo » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:09 pm

catnip wrote:........... I noticed that inside the distributor, there are a pair of points. Never seen that before..........

Question: Can anyone recommend two good air intake assemblies to buy for the two Strombergs?
............
That would be a Mallory twin point distributor. I have one on my Bristol. One set of points opens the circuit - the other closes it. Less arcing that way. I thought it would make more sense to have each set supplying three cylinders (four in your case) but that's not how they do it.

I have a complete US spec Stromberg set-up somewhere that I took off my imported Series II, in anticipation of fitting SU's. I just threw everything in a heap somewhere but if you can describe what you are looking for I might have it.
Hugo Miller - rebuilding an imported Series II OTS & converting to RHD

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#40 Re: Rusty fuel issues! Part 1

Post by johnetype » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:04 am

catnip wrote: I have found the original secondary inlet manifold. It is in pretty good condition. I currently have no plans to put this back on - unless there is a very good reason.

I discovered that since my father in-law removed this, he had to do a DIY job on the accelerator cable assembly. There is a bit of free play in the accelerator before the engine picks up, which I will adjust out.

Question: Can anyone recommend two good air intake assemblies to buy for the two Strombergs?
I believe there are two very good reasons to refit the secondary inlet manifold - as long as you've disabled or removed the secondary butterflies in it and you don't need to connect up it's cooling water connections.

With the manifold back in place the carbs will be spaced back to their original position. This is important as the spacing between the inlet ports and the carbs is unequal and by having them further back where Jaguar intended you'll get a more balanced and better flow of mixture into particularly the rear cylinders.

Your air intake problem is then easily solved as you can use the two air intake castings and then either of the air filter assemblies originally used by Jaguar. You have the later one in the photo of your engine before your father in law modified it. You don't need to bother with the warm air pipe from the exhaust manifold as in that set up it was only in use during engine warm up but there's no harm in fitting it if you wish.
John

1969 Series 2 FHC

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