Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Talk about the E-Type Series 2

Topic author
FHCINSC
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:55 pm
United States of America

#1 Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by FHCINSC » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:15 am

I am aware that I am taking up a little too much real estate on this board. I hope that it will slow down as I begin to work through the punch list on this restored but not driven car. Meanwhile I’m thankful for the advice and I promise to pay it forward.

I have noticed that the starter motor seems to not disengage upon starting the car. It is not so much that it is continuing to try to start the car but it just sounds like the gearing doesn’t disengage from the fly wheel for the first 15 seconds or so.

A retired friend who owned a starter and alternator shop suggested that this is probably the solenoid. Either it is faulty or it is continuing to receive voltage.

The car has all new wiring harnesses which is nice but the previous owner did a fair amount of carelessness with electrical tape when making connections. One such thing that I noticed was that there was a strange stand alone wire going to the starter solenoid and it was connecting inside the car in a Y with the white/yellow wire on the starter relay. It is very clear that this wire didn’t belong there and it was routed rather poorly and probably was a reasonably good fire hazard.

I reviewed the wiring diagrams for the starter and for the starter relay and it appeared there was no need for this extra wire. However upon removing it the car will not start now at all.

My starter motor has the 12 V wire coming from the battery and it has the White Red wire coming from the starter relay.

This picture points to where the standalone wire was connected. So basically it made a jumper connection from the white yellow wire at the starter relay to the starter solenoid.

At the moment I am wondering if I have a problem at the ignition switch, the fuse block or if the starter relay is bad.


Image

Thank you as always
Anthony
69 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Tom W
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat May 05, 2018 10:18 am
Location: UK
Great Britain

#2 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by Tom W » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:53 am

Which wiring diagram are you using? It took me ages to find one that included most of the extra US spec S2 bits that don’t show on the standard diagram. Does your car have the seatbelt warning system? This interrupts the starting circuit, so could have been bypassed. Is the terminal on your photo insulated from the main 12v in terminal at the top of the solenoid? It’s difficult to see on the photo. If so, the terminal in your photo should have a wire on it, going to the starter relay. White with a red tracer, according to my wiring diagram. This wire is energised only when the key is turned to the start position, and supplies power to the starter solenoid, which in turn moves the pinion into the ring gear and supplies power to the starter motor.

Where does the smaller wire from the top terminal post run to? That isn’t on the wiring diagram.
Tom
1970 S2 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
FHCINSC
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:55 pm
United States of America

#3 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by FHCINSC » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:25 pm

Thanks Tom. This is the diagram I’m using. I don’t believe my car has any seatbelt warning system.
The white wire you see coming into the side of the solenoid is the white red wire you speak of.
I don’t know if the smaller conmector that my yellow arrow was drawn is insulated or not. I just don’t have good access to it because of fuel system. Maybe I can try a continuity check and some body contortion.

Image


Thanks
Anthony

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 3812
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

#4 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by mgcjag » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:07 pm

Hi Anthony.....is your starter motor a replacement...it looks like it is......an original has a spacer plate fitted between the motor and the bellhousing......without it you could have engagement/disengage problems....also some aftermarket replacements can have different angle teeth....another potential problem....re the wireing do you have a ballast resistor start system....this will have a seperate thinner wire from the solonoid ....have a look at this diagram.....
Image
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
FHCINSC
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:55 pm
United States of America

#5 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by FHCINSC » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:18 pm

Thanks Steve. I do not believe I have the ballast resistor because I believe I researched that before and those showed up after my car was built.
Also I don’t have a white and blue wire like your diagram mentioned. I have brown, white/red, and white/yellow at my relay (And I believe black).
I don’t know if I have the spacer. I’ll try to take some more photos in a bit.
I don’t know if the starter is replacement but it may be. It certainly looks new but I don’t have a receipt for it.
It’s either new or rebuilt/restored.

Thanks!

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 3812
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

#6 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by mgcjag » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:25 pm

The terminal on the solonoid could just be a power takeoff point for ballast resistor Ccts..so not used if you dont have one....Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Tom W
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat May 05, 2018 10:18 am
Location: UK
Great Britain

#7 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by Tom W » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:15 pm

It looks from your photo that your white-red wire is connected to the same terminal as the main battery positive feed. If that’s the case, then the car won’t turn over as you’re just connecting the switched 12v feed to a point that already has a permanent 12v. On the original ballast resistor wiring, the extra feed that bypasses the resistor when cranking comes from the relay, not the starter motor. If you have a replacement motor, there might well be extra connections you don’t need for your installation.

Here’s another wiring diagram

http://www.xkebooks.com/images/Schematic-1970.pdf
Tom
1970 S2 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 3812
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

#8 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by mgcjag » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:51 pm

Hi Tom.....looks like an insulator on that stud the battery cable is connected to...isolating it from the r/w...Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
FHCINSC
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:55 pm
United States of America

#9 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by FHCINSC » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:07 pm

Tom, the only comment is that I believe the connector where the yellow arrow is smaller than the connector that the white/red wire uses.
I’ll be home a little later and will try to get some more pictures.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Tom W
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat May 05, 2018 10:18 am
Location: UK
Great Britain

#10 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by Tom W » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:46 pm

That would help. It’s quite difficult to see exactly what’s what on a mobile screen. Was there ever a wire on the terminal with the yellow arrow?
Tom
1970 S2 FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
FHCINSC
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:55 pm
United States of America

#11 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by FHCINSC » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:00 pm

Hi Tom. Yes. There was a stand alone and badly made/routed wire that connected that terminal into the starter relay on the same connection as the white/yellow wire that goes to the ignition.
The car won’t start now that I removed it. Obviously I know how to fix it but I’m trying to figure out why it’s this way and it doesn’t match the wiring diagrams.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
FHCINSC
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:55 pm
United States of America

#12 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by FHCINSC » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:09 am

Well. Photography is a real challenge without removing some items.
Here is a shot from under the car. Won’t help with the wiring but maybe could help determine if the spacer is there.

Image

Image

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 3812
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

#13 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by mgcjag » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:58 am

Hi Anthony...lets take a step back.......was you starter motor working ok then started to not disengage..or been like this since you had the car......here is a photo showing the spigot plate inbetween the starter and bellhousing
Image
This is from the service manual showing solonoid connections
Image
From your first photo with the arrow we cant really see the H terminal as shown in the diagram above......im assuming its connected to the smaller terminal with the arrow.......this should have the feed from the relay to operate the sololonid.....i suggest the r/w may be used as a power take off to feed power to the relay....possibly the previous owner swapped the wires at both ends..if the motor was changed and the terminals were different sizes......there looks like an insulator on the top stud....is the r/w connected to or insulated from it..Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
FHCINSC
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:55 pm
United States of America

#14 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by FHCINSC » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:57 pm

Hello all
I decided to remove the assembly of nuts and washers and connectors on the solenoid post.
I found that the terminal that the random homemade wire was attached to looks to be soldered onto the solenoid.
I took the white/red wire and moved it to this soldered on terminal and the car starts. However I do still have the trouble with the starter not disengaging immediately....this problem has been there since I took delivery of the car.
I’ve also confirmed that the white/red wire voltage drops to zero when the key is released. So I think my ignition and relay are good.
I’m going to guess I need a new solenoid.
Also, here is a picture which I think I does show a spacer plate between the starter and bell housing?
Thanks to all for your help! Got rid of some stupid/careless wiring so that’s good news!

Image

Image

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

mgcjag
Moderator
Posts: 3812
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Location: Ludlow Shropshire
Great Britain

#15 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by mgcjag » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:08 pm

Hi Anthony...yes thats the spacer in place.......cant quite see on your photo of solonoid but are there spade terminals soldered on.....so....good that you now have it working......probably worth taking out the starter motor and testing it on the bench to see if it releases ok....not sure why you think you need new solonoid..Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


cactusman
Posts: 1692
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:09 pm
Location: Hertfordshire
Great Britain

#16 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by cactusman » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:33 pm

To the right on the above pic is a small spade. That is where the white/red should go. The thick cable from the battery and a quite thick brown go to the top copper stud.
Julian the E-type man
1962 FHC
1966 MGB....fab little car too

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
FHCINSC
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:55 pm
United States of America

#17 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by FHCINSC » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:09 pm

Steve. A friend’s Dad owned a shop rebuilding starters and alternators. When I described the disengagement problem to him, he said it sounded like the solenoid.

Julian. There is no brown wire...just the wire from the battery, the grounding bar that connects the solenoid and starter and the white/red wire.

Thanks
Anthony

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


cactusman
Posts: 1692
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:09 pm
Location: Hertfordshire
Great Britain

#18 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by cactusman » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:33 pm

The brown wire will go to a stud somewhere near the battery then. The white red wire goes to the small spade and the battery cable to the copper post.....
Julian the E-type man
1962 FHC
1966 MGB....fab little car too

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


christopher storey
Posts: 4327
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:07 pm
Location: cheshire , england
Great Britain

#19 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by christopher storey » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:02 am

Have you made sure that the ignition/start switch is fully returning to the ignition only position after a start ? On my S2 I have had this problem and it was just a weak spring in the switch

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Topic author
FHCINSC
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:55 pm
United States of America

#20 Re: Starter wiring and solenoid questions.

Post by FHCINSC » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:24 pm

Hi Julian. I don’t have that brown wire. I’m wondering if that is for systems with a ballast resistor?

Christopher, I used a meter to confirm that the output of my relay drops to 0 when the key is released. My ignition switch does get warm however so I do plan to replace it.

Thanks
Anthony

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic