Torsion bars

[Joes66]

Hi all
New to forum and have a question
Are series 3 front torsion bars fitted to the v12 long wheel base cars the same length and fitment to the series 2 2+2 cars?
Both are long wheelbase but are they the same?
Just asking as I think the torsion bars on the series 3 were a slight upgrade from the 4.2 cars due to the extra weight of the v12
If they were interchangeable then it would give a slight fast road upgrade to my series 2 2+2 without going over the top
Plus series 3 torsion bars are fairly easy to find second hand and new at a fraction of the cost of new fully upgraded specialist bars
Was just looking for a slight upgrade
Many thanks for any replies
Joe

[mgcjag]

Hi ....its not really an "upgrade" that that iv heard of......what are you trying go achieve......what is the current ride of you E like?... Steve

[Joes66]

My car was a recent possibly rash purchase and to describe its handling and braking I can only say horrendous
It damn near killed me one afternoon so I took it of the road to investigate
I have had to remove all the brakes, IRS, front suspension to overhaul it all
Pretty much all the mechanical components on the car need replacing other than the main bits which are ok like engine gearbox and diff
So doing upgrades as I rebuild it all
The series 3 torsion bars are slightly thicker I believe and as I am also fitting up graded gaz shocks and poly bushes I thought I would do something for a slight up grade to the torsion bars
Joe

[christopher storey]

Not all changes are an "upgrade" ( how I hate that word). If you could fit S3 bars - which I am almost sure you cannot because the splined sockets are too small for them - the only likely effect would be that you would destroy the ride/handling compromise on which Norman Dewis and others expended huge efforts in testing . These cars are now a 60+ year old design , and ( although some will disagree ) they were really Grand Touring cars rather than out and out sports cars. Nonetheless, they still handle better than a modern day equivalent such as the Mercedes-Benz SL, without sacrificing much in the way of roadholding provided you stick to the proper sized wheels and tyres which are 185 R 15 ( inform your insurer ) or 185VR15 on 5J or 5.5J wheels . Going bigger than those will not improve things but will make the car a pig to handle and destroy the wonderfully tactile sensation of a properly setup car

[Gfhug]

[Tom W]

If all your standard suspension is worn out, you’ll see an improvement putting it back together with new standard spec parts. I’d recommend genuine or OEM parts where you can get them, particularly for anything that’s time consuming to change later. The tyres you chose make a big difference to the feel of the car too.

Once you’ve got the car set up and working well to standard spec, then start modifying to adjust the characteristics you’re not happy with. I think, if you just start “upgrading” willy nilly, you won’t necessarily end up with a suite of “upgrades” that work well together, but you’ll have spent a lot of money. The marketing industry is very good at convincing us that if something’s fatter, stiffer, lower, more race car, or just more expensive than the standard components, it must be better.

As to your initial question, I don’t know the answer, but as the S3 front suspension is different to the 6cyl cars, possibly not.

[Joes66]

I think I will keep the standard torsion bars then
Will probably put an adjustable reaction plate on though for easy adjustment and gaz shocks
Thanks for all the replies
Joe

[mgcjag]

Hi Joe.....if you have rebuilt all your front suspension then you would have already removed and cleaned up your existing torsion bars.....they are infinatly adjustable for ride height and unless you are needing to change heights for track days etc then in my opinion an adjustable reaction dosnt give you any advantage...in addition they are not as simple to adjust as they sound....lots of info here on the forum if you search .....Steve

[Bob.]

Just for the record, S3 torsion bars are over 4.5" longer than those fitted to S1/S2 although I believe the splines are identical (ignore the fact that the images show opposite ends of the bars and therefore different splines, they were just images I had to hand).

S3


S1+S2

[PeterCrespin]

Post deleted, thought it was a V12 query.

[Dawnpatrol]

Hi, You may already be aware that the series 2 2+2 already has thicker torsion bars than all other Series 1 & 2 road cars, inc Series 1 2+2.
So you already have the largest Jaguar fitted to a production car.
You might get a tangible benefit from a thicker anti-roll bar under the circumstances.

Michael

[Joes66]

Very interesting
It's hard to find all these small facts
Thanks for the info
I have decided to keep to standard and I will fit a stiffer anti roll bar with gaz shocks

Joe

[Tom W]

Hi, You may already be aware that the series 2 2+2 already has thicker torsion bars than all other Series 1 & 2 road cars, inc Series 1 2+2.
So you already have the largest Jaguar fitted to a production car.
You might get a tangible benefit from a thicker anti-roll bar under the circumstances.

Michael

LHD SWB cars also had the thicker bars. If you fit a thicker front anti roll bar, and do nothing else to the rear, you’ll make the car more prone to understeer. E-types as standard are very neutral.

[SimonBroberts]

Hi good morning

Going back you your original point that the handling was horrendous, can you be more specific about the problem?

If you have a load of worn out joints in the wishbones, dampers and ARB you'll have so much compliance that's got to be resolved before you make "upgrade" changes.

A small change in torsion bar dia makes a big difference (function of the 4th power) but could easily be matched by upping the rear spring rate to restore the original front-rear stiffness balance. Similar thing if you increase the front ARB rate...

Be aware that the characteristics of the Gaz dampers are different to standard... Also they don't effect the amount of roll, just the rate of roll. If the amount of roll is your issue then it's springs and ARBs!

Personally, I'd avoid poly bushes and go for standard. They might be stiffer than OEM and seem attractive for that reason but they can introduce a ton of stiction and that's a grip killer.

Just some thoughts, happy to chip in on specifics if that would be helpful

Simon

[tinworm]

If anyone wants a set of swb thicker anti roll bars I have a set I offer in exchange for standard parts. They are new and have never been used.

Barrie

[Joes66]

Thanks for all the points
Basically the car looked like it was still on all it's original braking and suspension components
All the rear caliper pistons were rusted into place
The rear original type brake discs were rusty and scored
Handbrake was seized on one side
The rear springs just rust and the dampers were no longer damping, the shields were rusted through
The anti roll bar rubbers had fallen out of their eyes on the links
Both rear hub bearings were rusty and one of the inner ones was solid (dont know how it even worked tbh)
Both rear hubs had play in them
The out fulcrum bearings were rusty and so were the inner ones
One of the inner bearings had collapsed and had worn its mounting hole oval requiring a replacement arm
The other bearings were either seized or broken up
All the brake pipes were at the point of failing
There were other things as as well as you can imagine from this lot I have listed
I haven't tackled the front yet but I did replace the steering g column ujs and tried made something up to help the upper cage bearing take the play out of the steering wheel which was flapping around like a sheet in the wind
Oh and I replaced the track rod end that had like half a inch of play in it
I am fairly sure the front brakes and suspension will be as bad as the rear hinted at by the brake peddle going up and down when you braked
Now bear in mind this car does not look like a basket case and wasent pulled out of a hedge
In fact it looks very nice indeed with straight gaps and shiny paint work
I got the car for a reasonable price so I dont mind doing the work and as I can do it myself to keep the cost down to parts only
The plan is to only do mild upgrades and replace all the bad mechanical parts with a view to future proofing any more nasty problems
I joined here to the forum to throw things out there and see what's the best course forward on parts and upgrades
Going great so far thanks to your deep knowledge:)
Thanks for all your help
Joe

[Tom W]

I’m not surprised it felt unsafe if that’s what you’ve found. Standard parts in terrible condition is not really representative of how a standard car should drive.

Again, I would caution against jumping straight in with what are perceived upgrades. With standard spec, you know you’ve got a collection of parts that have been carefully selected, and validated, by Jaguar, to work together.

With upgrades, you’ve got something that marketing tells us is better in some way. However, “better” really just means different. If you fit all these upgrades parts with different attributes, you’ve only actually made anything any better if all the new attributes actually work together as a whole. Even then it’s only better if you’ve improved whichever attributes on the standard car you weren’t happy with, and can live with those that have likely got worse. If it doesn’t work as planned, unless you’re experienced in chassis development, identifying what’s the wrong part won’t be easy.

If you start with a good condition standard spec, you can then objectively decide which attributes you don’t like, and make changes from there. For example, the changes required to increase mechanical grip will be different to those required to improve steering feel. If you’re convinced standard spec isn’t for you, I’d recommend get a drive in a good condition standard car. Then you can identify which bits you want to upgrade, rather than doing all of them and hoping it works out. Particularly useful if you’re working to a budget.

Alternatively, ask on here what people have tried or would recommend, to achieve a car that does XYZ etc. You’ve not said yet what your desired end result is.