Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Talk about the E-Type Series 2

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288gto
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#1 Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by 288gto » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:57 pm

Has anyone recently purchased the chrome beading that goes on the S2 and S3 headlamp bowls that actually fits?
I've now destroyed a set from SNG Barratts that bore absolutely no resemblance to the shape of the bowl and a set from Robeys. Unfortunately the originals were missing and damaged otherwise I would have had them re chromed.

Simon
Simon
1969 S2 OTS

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#2 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by Gfhug » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:22 pm

These seem like more items that need to be supplied without chrome for a customer to fit, abuse, etc. before sending for chroming.
It’d interesting to hear what the professional restorers do with such items.
Hope you get it sorted Simon.

Geoff
S2 FHC Light Blue
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration

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#3 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by mgcjag » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:57 pm

Hi Simon...I could be wrong but Julian from SNG at out user group meeting quite a while ago did mention some trim parts that they would be offered chromed ....i thought this was one of them.....I would PM Julian and ask ....Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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#4 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by 288gto » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:09 pm

Thanks chaps,

I"ll call Barratts tomorrow. I've got a spare pair of S2 headlamp bowls that I've now modified as formers for the chromes which playing with the scrap ones seems to work quite will. I've also made a tool for re shaping the inner lips that bend easily when you push the chromes on.
The problem is they are quite easily damaged so if they don't press on securely first attempt there is a real risk of ruining them with repeated attempts.

Importantly, what I did discover after it was too late is that in places on the chromes the internal dimensions aren't uniform which means some sections don't "snap" onto the special rivets nicely. This is easy to remedy by gently squeezing the sides together between two pieces of rubber.

The pain is that these chromes ideally need to go on before the headlamp bowls are fitted and I was hoping to get those in this weekend. :lol:

On a positive note my patent heat shaped rubber beading fits beautifully :bigrin:

I'll keep you posted incase this helps others.
Simon
1969 S2 OTS

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#5 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by Gfhug » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:12 pm

Hi Steve, I remember this comment as well, but can’t remember which parts Julian mentioned. Perhaps he’ll let us know :shrug:

Edited:
Point 8 in post 88 Julian said some parts (eg bumpers) would be offered un-chromed:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13729&start=80

Geoff
S2 FHC Light Blue
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration

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#6 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by 288gto » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:22 pm

mgcjag wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:57 pm
Hi Simon...I could be wrong but Julian from SNG at out user group meeting quite a while ago did mention some trim parts that they would be offered chromed ....i thought this was one of them.....I would PM Julian and ask ....Steve
Hi Steve,

After a couple of calls to Barratts and speaking to Peter today in their sales team, it would appear that there are no parts as yet available un chromed. I've ordered a few more sets of chrome ones to have a play with. I might send a set to Howells to have them stripped. I'm also trying to source the correct profile in brass and have a go at making my own.
Ref a PM to Julian, I've already pestered him enough about a set of wheels but if he does see this, an update on the availability of un chromed parts might be useful to others.
Simon
1969 S2 OTS

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#7 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by Mephistopheles » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:39 pm

Hello Simon
Last year I also strained my nerves with the chrome beading. With modest success as far as the fit is concerned. If you manage to find a source for the brass profiles, I would also be very interested in it.
Regards
Holger
1973 manual LHD OTS E Type
Holger

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#8 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by 288gto » Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:59 pm

A quick weekend update.

Several more sets of trims arrived from Barratts, non of which have been fitted. I will elaborate more when I've had the opportunity to speak to Barratts on Monday.

One observation I will make now I've had chance to compare them with an original trim is that the return lip on the SNG Barratt ones is a lot thinner which makes it prone to deforming rather than snapping nicely over the special rivet.

Angus kindly suggested a solution which involves making a special fixing that slots into the brass profile and is then attached with a nut inside the headlight bowl. This however while very effective only works for some of the fixings because of the shape of the bowl.

I can now say hand on heart that this, 3 weekends in, has become the worst job of the whole restoration. Wiper rack, bulkhead heater pipes, fuel tank, bonnet and door alignment were a breeze in comparison. :cussing: :lol: :lol: You S1 owners don't know how lucky you are.

Keep calm and carry on :bigrin:

I'll post some pics of the fixings shortly.
Simon
1969 S2 OTS

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#9 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by Bfastr » Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:05 pm

Sorry to hear you are having so much trouble.
I did this same thing on my 69 a few years back and while not the simplest task I didnt seem to have as much trouble. I too used SNG trim even tho I re-chromed the original parts. the originals just didnt look as nice in the end.

What I do remember is I had to re-adjust several of the rivets with differing numbers of washers, some required 3 ( maybe even 4) to stand tall enuf to accept the trim. have you tried or considered that?

Also, I fit mine over from one end and was able to slide the trim up over some of the other rivets. Still had to persuade it over others, but it wasnt impossible.

I guess its been 4 or 5 years since I did it, have driven a lot of bumpy roads and none of the trim has worked loose so far.

good luck with it

Bob F
Bob F

69 S2 E-type OTS LHD

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#10 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by JulianBarratt » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:28 am

Hi all,
I have followed this thread with interest over the last while. Its true that we agreed to launch more products "unfinished" following on from the forum visit to SNGB. Truthfully, we have done a few but not really a full program of unchromed items since that time so i will be tasking my team in 2021 to look at the range of E-type chromes where it might be benficial to offer unfinished. Products such as this trim are a classic exmaple of where we are working with a moving target - we changed these trims on our own V12 car in recent times and had no problem, but i have heard of similar challenges to the one described below. The difference in profile of the bonnets over the years, especially if a wing or centre panel has been replaced, is making it challenging to make one part that will fit all cars in some cases.

I will report back in due course on this.
MD at SNG Barratt Group
Enthusiastic owner/driver of a couple of complete E-types as well as a warehouse or two of parts...

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#11 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by 288gto » Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:51 pm

JulianBarratt wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:28 am
Hi all,

The difference in profile of the bonnets over the years, especially if a wing or centre panel has been replaced, is making it challenging to make one part that will fit all cars in some cases.

I will report back in due course on this.
Hi Julian,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I did get chance to speak to James who explained that the trims are bought in already shaped and then sent off for chrome plating. Apparently although 1 in 10 are checked for the quality of the chrome, you don't presently have any means of checking the shape either pre or post chrome plating.
As regards your comment above, it seems to me at least that the shape is determined on a S2 and S3 by the quite rigid headlight scoops that the wing and bonnet section attach to rather than the bonnet and wing panels themselves. It is onto the lip of these scoops that the chrome trims attach. You would therefore expect the shape to be reasonably consistent from one car to the next. In my case these are original and undamaged.
I have a spare pair of original ones that you are welcome to have FOC if this would help checking the shape of future batches.
I will send James some pictures this weekend as promised along with comparisons and measurements of an original.

I realise these are relatively inexpensive items so once again appreciate you looking into it personally.

Simon
Simon
1969 S2 OTS

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#12 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by JulianBarratt » Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:53 pm

Hi Simon,
The offer of the sample would be great - i will drop you an email in the next week and lets see what we can do.
MD at SNG Barratt Group
Enthusiastic owner/driver of a couple of complete E-types as well as a warehouse or two of parts...

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#13 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by MarekH » Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:15 pm

The interesting thing here is that it isn't the wing or centre section which defines this. Both of these panels are flexible around the headlight opening and only have two defined points where they have flanges - and hence rigidity. What defines the shape, and was very cheekily known by Jaguar, is that the sugar scoop covers up all of the mismatches. This is very much a 3D molding and the pop rivets force the wings and centre panel to conform to the scoop shape. Sadly, the angled flange on the scoop (which is cone shaped) does not go all of the way around the scoop and this means that it is possible to make the scoop more (or less) pointy, as the slack is taken up under the chrome eyebrow.

The scoop's angled flange from about 2 o'clock all the way around to 10 o'clock on the scoop, if pressed at a slightly different angle to the scoop body, will make the chrome trim not fit, because a twist on a 3D surface is the same as a bend on a 2D surface.

The problem with restorations is that these panels either get replaced or shot blasted. Replacements may be close, but the exact headlight opening shape may be in a different place to the original. Shot blasting makes the metal thinner, so a thin flexible panel is now mated against a thicker, more rigid replacement and the slack, or movement is taken up by the thin panel, which is only rigid where it is bolted. Additionally, the action of shot blasting puts a heat into a panel in the form of a wave, uncoiling any inbuilt "set" in the panel serially across the panel, leaving it's shape changed. Simply changing the angle to the vertical of the front leaded seam between the wing and centre panel will force the scoop to want to sit differently and upset the geometry.

If restorers were to understand 3D geometry and not dismantle and shot blast panels separately, then this would be an improvement. If they were to abrade paint without putting heat into the bonnet then even better. They should then dismantle the scoop to bonnet join, clean that up and refit. Then it'll fit. back like it came apart, rather than as a totally new (unverified) bonnet shape.

I know of one restorer who mated panels from three separate cars, painted them, then welded all around , repainted and then didn't bother to check original scoop fit before complaining that my covered headlights didn't fit his bonnet. The shape of that 3D opening is defined by the rigid scoop, not by the flappy panels. Those chrome trims have to fit the scoops, not the bonnets.

You mustn't take your eye off of the ball here - those wing and centre panels may be new from Hutsons, SNGB, Robey, or be 1968 vintage or 1974, or new old stock, or shot blasted, or rusty, or anywhere in between - they'll all be the same surely? Look at the scoop geometry instead.

kind regards
Marek

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#14 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by 288gto » Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:45 pm

MarekH wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:15 pm
The interesting thing here is that it isn't the wing or centre section which defines this.............. Look at the scoop geometry instead.

kind regards
Marek
Thanks Marek, as per my post above we seem to be in agreement on this hence my offer of an original pair
of scoops to Julian and his team to check trims against. Interestingly the main problem with all (and I now have quite a few :bigrin: ) Barratts trims is their lack of as you say 3D accuracy. Layed loosely against the scoop they sort of in most cases follow the curve of the rim in a 2D plane however they do/will not follow the complex twisting 3D shape when you come to fix them on properly.
Also for what it's worth my car scoops, wings and centre section are all original and have not been media blasted.
I'd be very interested having learnt from James at SNG that the trims come to them ready shaped and un chromed whether they would be happy to send me one to try. I'm wondering whether the chroming and polishing process is deforming them?

Simon
Simon
1969 S2 OTS

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#15 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by MarekH » Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:02 pm

1/ Like I say, a twist and then a press is to 3D what a bend is in 2D, so maybe they are made from the right 2D shape but then handled the wrong way.
2/ It'll be polishing, then chroming, not the other way around. A strike coat of copper is put down and this is then polished to death if it is even enough. When it is all gleaming copper with no imperfections, a nickel coat is flashed on and then similarly a chrome coat, both of which are razor thin, so to speak. The lion's share of the polishing is to the original copper coat(s), not the final chrome coat.

kinds regards
Marek

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#16 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by steve3.8 » Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:01 pm

I experienced a similar difficulty refitting my original trims 10 years ago , sort of arguing and swearing at a bonnet that does'nt answer back :banghead: .

I eventually concluded the new "special rivets" were most if not all of the problem because they were very roughly machined and too angular . Also being made from soft aluminium the trims did not "slip" over but gall into them --grease made no difference.
Were the original fixings aluminium or steel ?-- i would guess steel-- i dont know !
I spoke with a friend with his own bodyshop , he gave me the rivets in the picture which are a radiused ,smooth,polished finish --- the trims then clipped on easily despite needing slight deflections as they were not a perfect profile.
Maybe polish the rivets ?

Hope this is of some help
Steve

New rivets :roll:
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Old stock that i used
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Steve3.8

64 3.8 fhc, 67 4.2 fhc

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#17 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by 288gto » Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:30 pm

Interesting Steve, thanks for that.

I was going to have another bash at it today but didn't get chance.
Simon
1969 S2 OTS

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#18 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by JulianBarratt » Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:41 pm

Further to my previous comment that we had done this on our on V12 above - i am going to backtrack on that comment after a long conversation with our technician today who said that fitting these is "the most horrible job when rebuilding a S2 or S3 bonnet" and that they always require "tweaking" to get anything like a satisfactory fit.
The other comments are right that that rivet and at least two of the washers are required and he said that, from his long experience, he will occasionally fit a fastener (part number BD9848) for any really awkward chromes.

So - we are going to try on some of our stock on our V12 over the Christmas period and look at remaking these better than they currently are. I will update.
MD at SNG Barratt Group
Enthusiastic owner/driver of a couple of complete E-types as well as a warehouse or two of parts...

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#19 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by 288gto » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:59 pm

JulianBarratt wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:41 pm
.......I am going to backtrack on that comment after a long conversation with our technician today who said that fitting these is "the most horrible job when rebuilding a S2 or S3 bonnet" and that they always require "tweaking" to get anything like a satisfactory fit.
:lol: :lol:
Thanks for your honesty Julian. However "tweaking" was in my experience something of an understatement :bigrin: As you know I ended up buying quite a few trims from you in the hope that some would fit. What I did notice is that for some reason no two trims with the same part number were infact the same. As Marek mentions above, they are a complex 3 dimensional shape to replicate so I can appreciate the difficulty in reproducing these.
The other problem is that you really don't want to be doing too much "tweaking" to a chromed part for fear of damaging the chrome. I've spoken in more detail to James on the phone regarding the quality of the chrome on a couple and I know this is something he's looking into.

On a positive note the good news is that in the end sliding the ones that were a near fit over the top two rivets combined with Angus's tip about making special fixings I have finally managed to get a decent fit. :bouncyyellow: (Pic below).

I'll post all the ones that don't fit back to you but I haven't heard anything back from James ref the offer of the scoops. Do you still want the spare headlamp scoops so you can try other trims against them? Let me know before I post the returns.

Thanks again,

Simon
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#20 Re: Series 2 and 3 Headlamp chrome trims supplier?

Post by Mephistopheles » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:59 am

Hi Julian
Does the fastener BD9848 fit to the original holes for the rivets for the headlamp chrome trim?
Regards
Holger
1973 manual LHD OTS E Type
Holger

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