Heritage Throttle body injection

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morganjag
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Heritage Throttle body injection

#1

Postby morganjag » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:23 pm

NEC classic car show on Fri was busy but managed to spot some nice webbers on the Jenvey stand and ....they are throttle bodies which with the various accessories and an ECU make a carb car into a very much nicer drive and potential 50% improvement in fuel economy etc etc ie smoother , air and fuelling done by ECU . Ok any purists its not for you but one can put the stombergs and other bits in a box in the cupboard until they are ever going back on ...Anyway will find out the cost !

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timhum
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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#2

Postby timhum » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:10 pm

I looked at their stand and had very similar thoughts and am going to investigate this route for my mildly modified TR3a. I was told that they are going to make throttle bodies disguised as SUs which makes it even more interesting.
Tim
Tim
1965 S1 fhc

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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#3

Postby Series1 Stu » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:18 pm

I spent a lot of time talking to the guys at Jenvey, they certainly know their stuff. SU's present many problems and they didn't seem to think they would offer a solution any time soon.

Their Weber replacements with the hidden injectors for the Astons looked amazing. The DB5 in their stand was lovely too.

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Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#4

Postby chrisfell » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:00 am

timhum wrote:. I was told that they are going to make throttle bodies disguised as SUs which makes it even more interesting.
Tim


I’ve seen these made by Burlen (AKA SUj. Very clever disguise. Only an eagle eye’d observer would notice the ‘carbs’ lacked float chambers or that there was a throttle position device on the end of the main throttle shaft.
Chris '67 S1 2+2

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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#5

Postby Series1 Stu » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:26 am

Yes, I've even seen a system fitted to a 30's car with a single injector hidden in the body of the carburettor.

The problem Jenvey had was achieving the goal of having an injector per cylinder to give optimum fuelling.

They cast their own bodies too. On first glance I thought they had modified Weber bodies but they are bespoke items. Very impressive.

I am tempted but I want to experience the SU's first.

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Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'94 X300 XJR basket case

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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#6

Postby morganjag » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:02 pm

Having tried to find if anyone has fitted webbers to a v12 e type which are the same size as the Heritage TB's . there may not be enough room to fit filters on the air horns and get cool air into the chambers as the bonnet is too close . Anyway I will find out tomorrow .Very upsetting if this is the case .

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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#7

Postby Ikebaddog » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:25 pm

Am I missing something here? Why the need for FI on an engine designed to use carbs???
If you need modern running characteristics, then surely you driving the wrong car???
John
S3 2+2 1971
Aston V8 Vantage 2006
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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#8

Postby timhum » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:19 pm

No, it's a good question. My EType is pretty well standard and I intend to keep it that way; the TR3 has been modified a little and I just thought it might be a fun project to see what difference it makes to the car. It's often good to try new ideas and FI is reversible if necessary with the only downside being the cost.
Tim
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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#9

Postby mgcjag » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:38 pm

Jaguar did fit FI to some S3 cars.....so not such a strange thing to want to try
Steve
1969 S2 2+2

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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#10

Postby morganjag » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:52 am

mgcjag wrote:Jaguar did fit FI to some S3 cars.....so not such a strange thing to want to try



The v12 was originally designed to have injection . If you want to keep the four Stombergs then fine .

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Barry
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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#11

Postby Barry » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:33 pm

Nothing wrong with fitting FI from an XJS. My 6.0 litre car with Roger Bywater’s throttle bodies is producing approx 375+ bhp. Fabulous!

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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#12

Postby Ikebaddog » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:26 pm

Sorry I asked!, didn't know you could get a factory FI series 3, why weren't they all FI?
Don't you think carbs add a bit of old world charm, in a world of electronic fuel injection, where's the fun in that??
John
S3 2+2 1971
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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#13

Postby Barry » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:21 pm

Because they drive so much better, and more responsive. The V12 was designed to have FI from the outset, but was changed to carbs at the last minute because the company who designed the FI chickened out of the deal due to potential problems on copyright with Bosch. Someone may we’ll pick up the story from there.

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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#14

Postby Ikebaddog » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:41 am

Different strokes for different folks I guess, I find the escape from the electronic, digital world, with warning lights and sensors for everything to be quite refreshing, I like the fact that it takes some skill to get the car started and warmed in the correct fashion, explaining what a “choke “ is and does, it’s all part of the experience, oh for sure, as an everyday driver it would be a pain, but for that I have a modern fuel
Injected digitally controlled, never going to go wrong ( boring !!)
Which, even though it’s beautiful, ballistically fast, easy to drive etc etc, has nowhere near the character of the E-type ( with all its faults)
John
S3 2+2 1971
Aston V8 Vantage 2006
Caterham Supersprint 1.7 1989
Jeep Wrangler TJ

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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#15

Postby morganjag » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:46 am

No one with any experience would ever say throttle bodies are boring , very very few if any modern cars have TB's fitted as standard unless they are very special as cars have single point injection which is a tad boring but generally cheap compared to TB's. Most race cars have TB's by the way which are interesting ! Its not just drivability thats vastly improved and no need for a choke as the ecu does this , the mpg figure goes from 15 mpg to around 22 mpg or more .You don't have to change things if you don't want to its an individual decision and parts can be put back to their original form if wanted or sold with the car anyway.

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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#16

Postby Ikebaddog » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:06 pm

I am sorry if you thought I said that throttle bodies are boring... I was saying that the sterile, predictable, relentless relaibility of modern cars is what I find boring, I'm sure a V12 on throttle bodies with fuel injection is faster, more responsive, and more frugal than one on carbs. But I didn't buy my E-type for its performance, reliability or its economy....by today's standards, it is none of the above, but as a relic of the past, it's fast enough, reliable enough, and frugal enough...we obviously have bought, and own our cars for different reasons, and that's a good thing, it's what keeps the world going!.
John
S3 2+2 1971
Aston V8 Vantage 2006
Caterham Supersprint 1.7 1989
Jeep Wrangler TJ

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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#17

Postby mark10337 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:10 pm

The eType lightweights had a fuel injection system from Lucas back in the day on a XK engine, the V12 etypes were meant to have one but was released with Strombergs and later the XJ had it on the XK engine.

I spoke to Jenvey also at the weekend and had done last year when they initially released the Heritage bodies. It's a good / great system. Just pick your favourite Weber 45 intake manifold, Rob Beere / Mangoletsi etc. To their knowledge, only 1 person has fitted heritage bodies to an XK engine so far.

The SU look-a-like is from Burlen and was initially announced well over a year ago for release spring 2017. This never materialised and is currently on for a possible Q2 2018 release. I was holding back on the Jenvey throttle bodies to wait and see what Burlen bring to the market, especially as it is meant to have the same appearance as the SU original carbs. The delays from Burlen don't inspire confidence though, and Jenvey have an excellent reputation in the throttle body field.

and yes. Fully agree. Different strokes for different folks. We all enjoy / use our eTypes in various ways. One thing that brings pleasure to one person doesn't tick the boxes for another. There is no right or wrong to the FI vs Carbs discussion, it's a personal choice. It's not always about the results either, sometimes its about the journey of doing it.
-Mark

1969 Series 2 OTS, Regency Red
'Life's to short to drive a boring car'

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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#18

Postby morganjag » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:57 pm

Ikebaddog wrote:I am sorry if you thought I said that throttle bodies are boring... I was saying that the sterile, predictable, relentless relaibility of modern cars is what I find boring, I'm sure a V12 on throttle bodies with fuel injection is faster, more responsive, and more frugal than one on carbs. But I didn't buy my E-type for its performance, reliability or its economy....by today's standards, it is none of the above, but as a relic of the past, it's fast enough, reliable enough, and frugal enough...we obviously have bought, and own our cars for different reasons, and that's a good thing, it's what keeps the world going!.



John , you a absolutely right , I am not jumping into this conversion without a great deal of thought and research and speaking to Emerald in Norfolk who are familiar with v12 e types and have one in their garage at the moment. Anyone buying a v12 e type is going to be very careful what they do as changing things will affect its value and originality so I am sure all of us would tread carefully and take advice before changing anything ! I am very fond of the v12 e type !

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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#19

Postby Woolfi » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:52 pm

I am thinking, that in this discussion a lot of people are talking a lot of bullshit !!!
They are talkning about things, they NEVER have testet or compared. Fairy tales and rumors are the main content of most of the posting above. For me it seems like a never ending reproduction of the same rumors
- "More responsiveness" . Hahaha , less responsiveness compeard to a well done motor with 4 Strombergs was my result of REAL LIFE testing.
- 50% less gas consumtion. Hahaha. How less a injected car shall "take", compared to my 20mpg EV12 with carbs. In the city, the difference in gas consumption will be greater. The FI-car will be better. But very few difference in steady state driving.
I have tested on a real road. I have compared a EV12 with a injection from the XJ12 Series II. Both cars with the 5,3 L motor. Who has done this of all the peaple, telling about all the benefits if FI ? I think not one perso has done this. A REAL compare is very much different of the storiy somebody is telling , after he has spend a lot of work and money for the conversion. Not the believe of this perosn is true, only the REAL test can show REAL results.
We drove on a free Autobahn, side by side, both cars in the fourth gear with roundabout 2000 rpm. My carbed car, free exhaust and free airfilter box with a trumpet of 58 mm instead of 32 mm diameter, has a 2,88 axle. The injected car had a 3,07 axle and also free exhaust and big piepelines to the air box. When we pressed the pedal to the metal, immediately my car accelerated quicker than the car with the injection, allthough my axle is 7% "longer". After roundabout 2 km of driving I was roundabout 100 - 200 m in front of him. Not funny for the owner.
Some years later I have done the same test with my car , which in the meantime has got a 6,0l motor, compared to the EV12 of a friend , who also had a 6,0 L motor. Exactly the same result. My friend has spend alltogether mor than 20000 Euro for the conversion. He was VERY unhappy with the result.
I think that the torque of the motors is different because of the different construction of the runners. The carbed car seems to have more power below 3500/4000 rpm. The injected car has more power above 3500/4000 rpm.
I say "seems" to me, because I have only testd two cars. I am not 100% shure. Maybe both FI-cars had a bad programming of the computer, that the mixture was to lean.
My carbed car with a 2,88 axle and a Getrag 5gear has a gas consumption of roundabout 20 mpg. I don't think, taht the injected cars ar 10% better.
I think that more responsiveness, less gas consumption, higher power, smoother running are ALL rumors, talked by people, which have heard this from other fairy tail teller.
6 Weber carbs or 6 throttle bodies directly in the V of the motor are COMPLETELY shit !!! Mr. Bywater told a friend of me, that it is worthless to do this conversion,because the length of the valve ti air horn end is too short. The "runners" length are MUCH too short, to "fit" for 6000 rpm. The motor don't reach the high revs , where the dynamic movement of the air of this short construction is "working" well.
I don't say this all, because I have a carbed car and "all mothers love their babies". 15 years ago I was planning also to change to FI in my EV12. After I have done the first compare with a injected car, I became sceptic.
I can drive in 1gear (Getragh is shorter in 1st gear than the original Jag-box) with 600 rpm, and press the pedal to the metal. IMMEDIATELY at 6000 rpm the back wheels are spinning free. How should be there "more responsiveness" of a injected car ? The responsiveness is dependig of the torque in the moment of the acceleration. The torque is depending on the filling of the cylinder, the filling is depending of the "shape" / construction of the "runners". It has NOTHING to do with the type of mixture production.
If you want a injected car working well, you have to spend a lot of money , or time and "brain" into this conversion. It took YEARS of debugging at my friends car, until the motors was running well in EVERY condition.
Most EV12 owners NEVER have tested the mixture of their motor in every running condition. Most of the owners don't know how the lambda shall be, that the motor is working well. 99,5 % of all EV12 owners are FAR (!!!) away from beeing able , the correct the mixture of the motor, if a free flow exhaust and a free flow air filter trumpert is mounted. Most idiots and 95% of all garage owners are telling "we adjust the level of the needle". They are fools, nothing else. You can adjust the mixture at idle and low part throttle with the level of the needle. The mixture at high throttle is depending of the needle profile and NOT of the level of the needle. From where do I know. Very easy: I have testd and done this all in REAL LIFE and not by mouth, or rumor or believe. You need a rolling road and a four-gas tester or (much cheaper) a lambda gauge in your car.
Before you don't know how to test this and make it working well, don't start to talk bullshit about injection vs. carbs.
Shure I know, that an injected motor is running better than the same motor with carbs. It is running better IF a some intelligent men have developed the injection and done the programming of mixture and ignition. To compare a well done injected motor with a old, BAD TUNED motor with carbs, shure will show, that the injcted motor is better.
If a EV12 with free flow exhaust and WITHOUT the 32 mm air inlet trumpets has the correct mixture, the same car with a injected motor is in parts of the running condition driving better. Between 1500 and 3500 - 4000 prm I think, because of the experience I have had in REAL LIFE, that the motor with the 4 strombergs is pulling stronger than the injected motor. A scientist would say, the result of only two tests is worth nothing to establish a true theory or hypothis. This is correct. But the results i have seen, also don't show , that the FI is better.
A garage nearby sometimes has a injcted EV12. But the owner does not want anymore to make such a test, because two times I have "slaughtered" his customers on the autobahn and both owners asked him sharp, why the expensive (!) done FI-cars have been slower than the carbed car.
One time we have done such a compare in the rev-range over 4000 prm. in this area the FI-car accelerated quicker than my carbed car. Therefore the hypothesis " a FI EV12 has a higher MAX power than the some car with 4 carbs is correct. The difference was small.
I hope that I will be able to make another test drive against a EV12 6,0L with injection, to become more shure about the difference of power of the two motors.
Regards Wolfgang Gatza

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MarekH
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Re: Heritage Throttle body injection

#20

Postby MarekH » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:33 pm

Throttle bodies are not a very good engineering solution and my guess is that the only reason it is being considered is that you want to try to retain some semblance of stock appearance. Consider that no modern cars do it this way and that really tells you all you need to know. Petrol is injected a long way from where it is wanted and not much of it goes directly to where it is needed. Most injected cars have the injector inject straight onto each hot inlet valve sequentially just before that valve is to open.

Having said that, it is a step forward compared to the analogue relatively unadjustable carburettor of the 1970s.

The problem with most injection systems is that you will not have FULL direct control over the software running the car. If you want that, then go the Megasquirt route.

I speak as someone who runs a Megasquirted v12 running LPG and (occasionally) petrol fully sequentially, with all its datalogging features enabled.

You are welcome to pop in and see this setup - it is light years ahead of the Emeralds, Heritages and all of the others. It's not that their systems aren't any good - they're just not a very well thought through implementation from a hardware or software point of view compared to what is available these days.

kind regards
Marek

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