New clutch

Talk about the E-Type Series 3
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EDW3694
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New clutch

#1

Postby EDW3694 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:59 pm

Hi,
I'm contemplating getting a new clutch fitted due to a very heavy clutch pedal and high point of engagement. Is this an engine out job or can it be left in and what would the approximate cost be if it was done at a garage?
Thanks
Simon
'72 S3 2+2 Regency Red

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malcolm
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Re: New clutch

#2

Postby malcolm » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:05 am

I think it's an engine out job. I was quoted £2,000 'ish for my 4.2 series 2. Is it slipping yet? Could it be a matter of adjustment?
Malcolm
I only fit in a 2+2, so got one!

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abowie
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Re: New clutch

#3

Postby abowie » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:20 am

Apparently you can do this on S3 without removing the engine, although I have no personal experience with the V12 cars as I have never worked on them.
We charge 20 hours labour to remove and refit engine/gearbox on 6 cylinder cars.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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MarekH
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Re: New clutch

#4

Postby MarekH » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:25 am

Dear Simon,

How hard it is to disengage the clutch is a function how strong the diaphragm spring is between the the pressure plate and clutch cover and how much mechanical pedal travel is needed to move it. The former is not solved with a new clutch plate itself and the latter is a function of how much clutch fluid is moved per unit movement of your left foot.

To make the clutch easier to depress, a smaller diameter master cylinder is required. This moves less fluid and so the same is achieved by moving foot further towards the footwell. The mechanical advantage achieved makes pedal appear easier to depress. The clutch bite point is moved further towards the end of the pedal travel as a result.

Your clutch looks like this:-
Image

There is a writeup of how change the clutch on a s3 on the jag-lovers.com website by Dick Maury. You need full garage facilities and so it isn't doable by an amateur on the driveway. The engine and gearbox have to be separated far enough to get the clearance to remove the pressure plate and this is not readily achievable even on a long wheelbase car with any ease.

You'll have to ask a garage how much they'd charge for this service.

(Edit:- it's "dotcom" and picture changed.)

kind regards
Marek

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42south
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Re: New clutch

#5

Postby 42south » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:22 am

Hi
You will need to either take the engine and gearbox out as one unit, or make a modification to the tunnel to allow you to get the gearbox out on its own.
Cutting out a piece of the tunnel seems a worthwhile modification to me, even though some would say its sacrilege. I did mine then took the piece to a panelbeater who attached a piece of metal all around the cut edge , this enabled me to reattach it to the tunnel in a neat manner.
If you have the original gearbox fitted it will be easy to just unbolt the driveshaft and lift out the box
Mark Brown
1971 S3 Etype
When my ship comes in it will probably be at the airport.

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Woolfi
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Re: New clutch

#6

Postby Woolfi » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:39 pm

In my EV12 I needed a lot of leg-power, to push the clutch pedal.
After I had mounted a new clutch (automat plus disc) the pwer to push the pedal has reduced a lot.
When I hat the old clutch in my car, I have mounted a cylinder with a piston with less diameter. After this change, the force to push the pedal was lower.
After I had mounted the new clutch, it was not possible to separate the disc 100%. Therefore I have mounted the original cylinder with the bigger piston again.
An experienced garage owner, repairing EV12 since 40 years, told me, that the force to pull the pedal is rising, the less thickness the clutch disc has. My own experience showed me, that he was correct.
If you check the picture of Marek, the "gearing" of the automat is changing with changing the thickness of the disc. The ankle of the "feathers" is changing and therefore the amount of power, you need to move the plate, which is pressed to the disc.
Regards Wolfgang Gatza

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Adamski
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Re: New clutch

#7

Postby Adamski » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:54 pm

I've done it with no cutting on my S3 without removing the engine but what a pain.
You have to drop the rear end down to pull the prop back more. Cant remember about the exhaust.
Remove interior tunnel, disconnect bell housing and pull back, You need good socket set and extensions, undo the pressure plate bolts bit by bit with bell housing pulled back ,but still in situ one by one slowly rotating the clutch. Once free you can ONLY THEN lower the gearbox.
Replacement is a pain but the reversal, hardest bit is estimating the clutch plate is central. But it works. Changed the lot and had gearbox overhauled also. Hardening on shafts was found to be pitting also. You will have to pull the gearbox in with longer bolts at first very carefully, plate must be central.
The procedure works and saves pulling the lump.
Adam
S3 V12 E Type FHC Manual 1972-owned since 1978

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vee12eman
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Re: New clutch

#8

Postby vee12eman » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:13 am

I was a little hesitant to reply, since my gearbox is non standard, so my experience may not apply.

I succeeded in removing my Getrag Gearbox without removing the engine, but in my case, I removed the rear suspension first. Before you recoil in horror, this is because the output shaft of my Getrag gearbox is splined and, as Adam said in a previous post, you have to disconnect the prop shaft, to allow the gearbox to move backward and allow access. I had to remove the IRS in order to slide my prop shaft off the gearbox rear spline, but if you can unbolt the prop shaft at the flanges (which is the standard design) then no need to remove the IRS to disconnect, just unbolt the flanges, move the shaft to one side and pull the 'box rearwards.

After that, I pulled the 'box back as far as I could, then reached inside and removed the bolts attaching the bell-housing to the front face of the gearbox and was then able to manipulate the gearbox and bell housing separately, tilting the bell housing back over the clutch, whilst simultaneously lowering the nose of the gearbox (the tail is above the rear cross member and won't drop, which is what causes the problems in the first place). it was awkward, but made it possible to align the clutch plates without too much trouble.

Reassembly, in the best Haynes tradition, was a reversal of removal! Again awkward, but doable.

Get the car as high as you can and have plenty of support under the 'box and bell housing. If you can make space, two people is helpful, but I managed safely single handed.

Good luck,

Regards,
Simon S-Y
Series III FHC

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madjack4
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Re: New clutch

#9

Postby madjack4 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:41 pm

Hi
I am a s3 v12 owner and garage owner the correct way to replace the clutch is to remove the engine and box the clutch will be lighter with a new clutch due to angle of the diaphragm spring as the clutch plate wears the diaphragm spring sits out further needing more force to press it modern cars now have a automatic ratchet mechanism that adjusts the pressure plate to keep the clutch pedal pressure the same through out its life i can replace your clutch by removing the engine and box for £1200.00 plus parts if you are interested call me on 07778807739 anytime
Regards Rob

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JJC
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Re: New clutch....pull engine ?? NO !!

#10

Postby JJC » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:00 pm

Clutch can be changed after a few simple mods, without pulling engine. The first thing will be ( and you will not have to do it again in the future) is to loosen the rear assembly to give you some room to wiggle out the drive-shaft, after disconnecting from back of gear box. Now you have lots of room to disconnect box from bell housing, and then a few bolts to remove bell housing. Rebuild with new clutch, and of course, pressure plate. They are GM parts...cheap ! Send fly wheel out to be planned, as you would a brake disk, to make sure its true. About
60US Before re-assemble, send drive-shaft to an appropriate shop, remove 4 inches, replace with 4 inch collapse-able piece, re-balance, and re-paint. Its done all the time in off road, trucks, etc. Driveshaft will be as strong, or stronger then new. Re-install driveshaft to the rear end, take a coat hanger, hold it way up out of the way, and the rest is simple, just re-assemble. Should never have to pull engine again, should clutch problems happen arrise. Work on drive-shaft should run you about $100 US.

John

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angelw
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Re: New clutch

#11

Postby angelw » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:49 am

John Wrote:
Clutch can be changed after a few simple mods, without pulling engine. The first thing will be ( and you will not have to do it again in the future) is to loosen the rear assembly to give you some room to wiggle out the drive-shaft, after disconnecting from back of gear box. Now you have lots of room to disconnect box from bell housing, and then a few bolts to remove bell housing.

Hello John,
How do take the Gearbox off of the Bell Housing without first removing the Bell Housing and Gearbox assembly from the engine? The bolts securing the Gearbox to the Bell Housing are inside the Bell Housing and are secured by Tab Plates. I just can't see that it would be possible.

Regards,

Bill

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JJC
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Re: New clutch

#12

Postby JJC » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:25 am

Your Series 3 must be a different animal, as I simply un-bolt my gearbox from bell housing , and slide back to remove. Once drive-shaft obstruction is addressed, very simple. The bolts holding the gear box on, are on the outside of the gearbox, and screw into the bell housing.

John

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angelw
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Re: New clutch

#13

Postby angelw » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:31 am

John Wrote:
Your Series 3 must be a different animal, as I simply un-bolt my gearbox from bell housing , and slide back to remove. Once drive-shaft obstruction is addressed, very simple. The bolts holding the gear box on, are on the outside of the gearbox, and screw into the bell housing.

Hello John,
Actually, yours would be the unique example and clearly would not have a standard Jaguar Synchromesh Gearbox.

All the following Jaguar models have basically the same gearbox case and attachment method of Gearbox to Bell Housing. They all share the same gasket between Gearbox and Bell Housing and therefore, the bolt pattern is also exactly the same. In ALL cases, the bolts screw into the front face of the Gearbox and therefore, can only be assembled from within the Bell Housing.

420 Saloon
Daimler 2.5 V8 / V8 250
Daimler Sovereign
Daimler Sovereign S1
E-Type S1 4.2
E-Type S1 4.2 2+2
E-Type S1.5 DHC
E-Type S1.5 FHC
E-Type S2 2+2
E-Type S2 4.2
E-Type S3 V12 2+2
E-Type S3 V12 Roadster
Mk II / Mk 2 2.4 & 240
Mk II / Mk 2 3.4, 3.8 & 340
Mk X / Mk 10 4.2
S-Type 3.4, 3.8
XJ6 S1
XJ6 S2 / Daimler Sovereign S2

The following picture from an S3 Parts manual clearly shows the Bell Housing attachment bolts orientated to assemble from the inside of the Bell Housing. I'm sure that Jaguar wouldn't have commissioned the printing of that page and the myriad of Workshop Manuals just for my "different animal".

Image

I work on some form of E Type most days of the year (predominately S3s) and I know, as do many other members of this Forum, that it would be impossible (without doing some major hacking of the Bell Housing) to remove the Gearbox without separating the Bell Housing from the engine first.

And finally, the following pictures of an S3 Gearbox that I prepared earlier, showing the Front Face that interfaces with the Bell Housing. Note that the attachment holes are in the face of the Gearbox and are threaded. Accordingly, the attachment bolts screw into the Gearbox and not the Bell Housing.

Image

Image

Regards,

Bill
Last edited by angelw on Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JJC
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Re: New clutch

#14

Postby JJC » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:11 pm

My mistake...I have a Borg Warner 5 speed. Put in over 10 years ago. My mistake. Sorry for confusion.

John

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PeterCrespin
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Re: New clutch

#15

Postby PeterCrespin » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:32 pm

vee12eman wrote:I was a little hesitant to reply, since my gearbox is non standard, so my experience may not apply.


Correct, it doesn't really apply - except in vague terms.

The Getrag uses an intermediate adapter ring to fit the German bolt pattern box to the Jag pattern bell. This, and the sliding spline front propshaft fitting , make for a different set of challenges, although obviously the basic principles are the same.

I have a couple of the adapter rings left if anyone wants to fit a cheap 'short' Getrag five-speed to an SWB car, or the even cheaper 'long' Getrag to a LWB E-type.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 79 S2 XJ12L; 97 XJ6L

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EDW3694
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Re: New clutch

#16

Postby EDW3694 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:03 pm

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Thanks for all the replies and I thought it was time to give an update on the clutch.
The engine was removed and the clutch was as expected, in a poor state. The mechanic says it was the original clutch (35k Miles from new)Now with a rebuilt clutch and many other jobs completed while the engine was out, the car is running very well.
I’ve attached a few pics of the worn out clutch
Simon
'72 S3 2+2 Regency Red

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