Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

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lowact
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#1 Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by lowact » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:44 am

Just before I go ahead and stuff it; does anyone know of a reliable procedure for correctly sizing and setting the crankshaft rear oil seal when you don't have special tools JD.17B and JD.17B-1?
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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abowie
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#2 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by abowie » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:04 am

Image

Make one.
Last edited by abowie on Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
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#3 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by garrycol » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:29 am

That link - she no work. :sad:
1971 Series 3 E-type OTS

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#4 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by lowact » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:37 am

Yes pls Andrew, can u fix the link? Meanwhile I found this old post:
Subject: rear seal sizing tool
norman m. macleod wrote:
Wed May 07, 2014 7:49 am
Hi there,
Greetings from the Land of Oz......The correct sizing tool has 2 different diameters on it. The front section measures 2.9125" diameter, which, as a centralizing guide, is a sliding fit into the rearmost main bearing housing, without, repeat without, the bearing shells in place. The rear section, which actually sizes the seal, is 3.119" diameter. The size you quoted (2.750") is the main journal diameter, and does not relate in any way to the sizing tool.
I can send you a photograph of the correct sizing tool, with longitudinal measurements for each diameter section, if you wish. My e-mail is included in the profile below, so contact if you wish, then I can respond. I also have a number of what may be helpful comments on the seal installation, as much suburban myth, legend, and error abounds out there on this subject. Properly installed, it should not leak.......
Regards,
Norman.
I tried to PM Norman but the msg will not send, does this mean he is no longer on forum?
I know what these tools look like because there is currently one for sale, ebay item 112849562259.
So with Norman's diameters I could make something, except I am not sure what is the significance of the longitudinal measurements Norm is talking about, or even how the tools are actually supposed to be used, are they only useable with the big-end bearings removed, is there a reliable way to size/set the seals with the bearings in situ?
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#5 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by jagwit » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:29 pm

Is there a nice write-up / video somewhere as to exactly how one goes about installing and sizing this rear crank seal? Its the one thing on the V12 I have not had the will to do.
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

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#6 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by abowie » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:37 am

I've measured the one that we use. Unfortunately the verniers we have are not long enough to go right around the tool but I can confirm that what we have looks pretty close to the measurements in Norman's quote above.

Checking the picture, the large diameter is pretty close when converted to inches but the smaller diameter is closer to 2.9175".

I can't remember where I sourced that CAD picture from.

If you want me to try to get more accurate measurements I can try again next week.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#7 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by lowact » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:12 am

Thx Andrew, we cannot access the CAD picture, can you try again pls?
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#8 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by abowie » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:52 am

Bugger. Shows up for me.
PM me an email address and i'll send it to you.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#9 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by lowact » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:18 am

Thx Andrew for the file. I have marked it up with the dia’s suggested by Norm Macleod and saved it as a pdf here, hopefully anyone interested can grab it directly …
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AiSPBKa26IcchKUn1BrZpJKYQ608Mw
It seems to be JD17B, doesn’t include the adaptor, JD17B-1.
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AiSPBKa26IcchKUojbsWikMDvMfWsQ
It seems that JD17B has been around for a while, originally called J17, used by our crippled cousins with only half an engine.
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AiSPBKa26IcchKUm5cXC-1W8H-3htQ
Seems the adapter is necessary to enable this tool to be used for V12s. Rob Beere sells 3 items, what looks like JD17B, JD17B-1 and a dedicated V12 tool that (presumably) they developed themselves ...
http://www.rob-beere-racing.co.uk/tools.html
Obviously, all these tools can only be used with the crankshaft removed which doesn’t help me, I was hoping to fit a new seal while I just had the gearbox out. Previously I bought a “sneaky-pete” tool.
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AiSPBKa26IcchKUuLaly9ubXmmzPaw
Then I learned this had been canned by Jaguar engineers due to it not providing for the requisite clearance between the seal and the crank. So for now it’s back to the drawing board …
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#10 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by norman m. macleod » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:06 am

Hi Colin,
Noted your reference to my previous input on this topic back in May, 2014. I have no idea why you couldn't get me on PM since, I am still here, in the largest lump of Oz, (WA)...Where on earth is Canberra, by the way....??
Anyway, by now you'd have realized that my post at that time related only to the sizing tool for the 6-cyl. XK engine. Not of much help to you, with a V12. As you now know, the easiest way out of this is to buy a tool. (I bought mine from Rob Beere, he does one for the V12 too, about 90quid and 105 quid respectively, plus shipping, but no UK VAT (20%).....As for Andrew's comment to just "make one"......Well, even with the total range of machining facilities I have at my disposal, and all the time in the world (a long-retired 74-year-old engineer....), I just wouldn't bother. Buy one....believe me.....you have better things to do with your time....!! :smile: :smile:
In answer to your final question.....There is NO WAY to replace the rear rope seal, properly, either on a L6 or a V12, with the crank in place. Not if you want it centralized and leak-proof, anyway......
Nothing to do with seals, but had a bit of a smile with your comment on, quote, "our crippled cousins with half an engine" unquote.....My humble old Series 1 2+2, with a seriously modified XJ6Series III engine, would see off any standard E-Type Series 3 V12. Not, Colin, that I am against the V12, I have my own early 1980's HE XJS, which, with the help of AJ6 Engineering and my dear (departed....) acquaintance Tom Walkinshaw, I got up to a healthy 400+ bhp (assisted by a 6.4 litre displacement......) :Scotland: .....more than enough for a geriatric hooligan such as I.....
Now, Canberra....Canberra....., must look it up on the map......All the best
Norman
1967 S1 2+2

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#11 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by lowact » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:37 pm

Thx Norm! Sorry mate, Canberra is a state of mind – is only for the enlightened😊
There is one of these tools on ebay for AUD 512. But at JBs price I will probably buy one. Getting the tool is one thing, knowing how to use it properly is another?
I figure:
1. Soak the seal halves in oil for 24 hrs at least;
2. Work them gently by hand until they are uniformly malleable
3. Work them into the recesses, pressing and rolling repeatedly with a bar until satisfied that the halves are fully compacted into the recesses.
4. Cut off any end protrusions leaving about 0.5 mm protruding on one (opposite) side of each.
5. Insert the tool and pre fit the seal retainer to the block, carefully tightening the bolts in turn until the tool can only be turned by hand with difficulty.
6. Use feeler gauge to measure the gaps between the seal retainer and the block. Dismantle the seal and trim these amounts off the (protruding?) ends of the seal.
7. Remove tool install crank, refit seal, job done.
I just made this up. Is it close?
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#12 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by norman m. macleod » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:07 am

Hi again Colin,
Your proposed procedure is generally OK, with a couple of comments. I don't soak the seal in oil prior to use. When tight (on new seal installation), there is a chance of pick-up and the seal can spin in the housing. All of the Jaguar Workshop Manuals I have are pretty vague on the subject of rear seal installation, with the exception of the XJ6 Series III Manual, which gives a detailed procedure, including, quote " brush a thin coat of red Hermetite into both grooves for 1 inch from the joint face on opposite halves (from the leading edge of seal on both)", unquote......Prior to final assembly I apply a liberal coating of engine assembly lubricant to all seal faces (I use Torco MPZ, but there are plenty others out there.....)
Re cutting the seal ends, prior to final assembly, I leave about 0.003" to 0.005" of the seal ends standing proud of the housing face, on one half. This can be achieved with a feeler on the housing face, adjacent to the seal end, and a sharp new Stanley blade or similar.
Best regards,
Norman
1967 S1 2+2

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#13 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by lowact » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:48 pm

Thx Norman. I didn’t think to check the L6 instructions, I see what u mean, they are more comprehensive than for the V12, in case anyone else is interested I provide them here.
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AiSPBKa26IcchKUwjF3oylqjK7D6zA
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AiSPBKa26IcchKUvWriqCJYUhMjBJg
I note for the L6 the seal housing is separate whereas for the V12 the seal grooves are in the block and rear main bearing cap. Interestingly for L6 there is stern instruction to NOT trim/cut the rope seals. Makes me realize the same is implicit in the v12 instructions.
What this means is that the Jaguar rear seal installation is quite different to what I am used to, seems that there is in fact no sizing needing to be done at all, the rope seal halves are already pre-sized, the only purpose of the tool is to ensure that the rope seal halves are completely and uniformly pressed into the seal grooves. So really very easy. Makes me think I could maybe try using the “sneaky-pete” to do the job in situ after all, including disturbing (removing and reinstating) the rear main crankshaft bearing :bigrin: If it doesn’t work the solution would be to pull the engine out, which is in any case the alternative … wish me luck?
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#14 Re: Crankshaft rear oil seal sizing

Post by norman m. macleod » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:07 pm

Hi Colin,
Brief additional comment........The original genuine Jaguar seals were manufactured to a precise length, and that was the reason for the "no cut" admonition in the Manual. Some of the aftermarket seals are much longer than necessary, and, of consequence, have to be cut........
Best regards,
Norman
1967 S1 2+2

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