Charging issue on my series 3

Talk about the E-Type Series 3
User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#1 Charging issue on my series 3

Post by Djerome60 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:30 pm

Good afternoon,

i'm getting to the end of my restoration project of my 1972 2+2 LHD and as expected there are some electricity issue that i need help for.
In fact the alernator is not charging at iddle and the ignition light does not work even before starting the engine. I have tested the power of the battery and i have around 12 v at idle and it goes up to 14 v above 2000-2500 RMP. I have read that it should be coming from the "exitation" wiring but i have to admit that i'm not an expert at all in electricity but i have understood that the ignition light is fully part of the alternator/regulator wiring.

Please what i have done so far:
-Check battery output : 12v at idle - around 14v i high rmp
-Changed 22RA relay
-Check the alternator brush : ok
-clean the connection (ground especially)
-Check the ignition bulb : ok

I will appreciate if someone could make any suggestion to move forward?

By the way, i'm also wondering what is the purpose of the realy which is located on the LHS of the car just behind the brake bottle?

Thanks in advance
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

Series 3 - 2+2 1972

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

driver
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:48 pm
Great Britain

#2 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by driver » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:54 pm

Hi ,Rob Gill here.
I had a similar condition on my 1971 s3,had the system checked to find it was the voltage regulator part no. C 31526 that was not working,i dont know the reason why has i am a nuts and bolts man (in other words if i cant see it i dont believe it........... like electricity).
But what i do know it started charging right away,and have had no problems since.
All the best Rob. :swerve:

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


MarekH
Posts: 735
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:30 pm
Location: Surrey
Great Britain

#3 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by MarekH » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:09 am

Dear Jerome,

There is plenty of useful dignostic information about the s3 charging system on David Lacey's website. The 22RA is for the starter motor and isn't part of the alternator circuit.

The regulator itself only has a couple of transistors so is very easy to repair.

kind regards
Marek

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Bob.
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:05 pm
Location: North Gloucestershire
Great Britain

#4 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by Bob. » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:14 am

Hi Jerome,
By the way, i'm also wondering what is the purpose of the realy which is located on the LHS of the car just behind the brake bottle?
The relay on the left mudshield is the main air conditioning relay.

Bob
Bob
'71 S3

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#5 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by Djerome60 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:46 pm

driver wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:54 pm
Hi ,Rob Gill here.
I had a similar condition on my 1971 s3,had the system checked to find it was the voltage regulator part no. C 31526 that was not working,i dont know the reason why has i am a nuts and bolts man (in other words if i cant see it i dont believe it........... like electricity).
But what i do know it started charging right away,and have had no problems since.
All the best Rob. :swerve:
Many thanks Rob,

i'll look at the regulator.
Did you have also issue with the ignition light?
Many thanks.

Jerôme
Regards
Jérôme

Series 3 - 2+2 1972

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#6 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by Djerome60 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:48 pm

MarekH wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:09 am
Dear Jerome,

There is plenty of useful dignostic information about the s3 charging system on David Lacey's website. The 22RA is for the starter motor and isn't part of the alternator circuit.

The regulator itself only has a couple of transistors so is very easy to repair.

kind regards
Marek
Many thanks Marek.
I'll look at it and keep you posted.
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

Series 3 - 2+2 1972

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

driver
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:48 pm
Great Britain

#7 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by driver » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:42 pm

yes my ignition light was coming on erratically.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

jagwit
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:52 am
Location: Pretoria
South Africa

#8 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by jagwit » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:29 am

MarekH wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:09 am

The regulator itself only has a couple of transistors so is very easy to repair.

kind regards
Marek
Do you have a circuit diagram for it Marek?
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


MarekH
Posts: 735
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:30 pm
Location: Surrey
Great Britain

#9 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by MarekH » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:27 pm

I think I may have given o copy to David years ago. See http://www.xketype.com/e107_plugins/con ... content.40

I also have the pnp equivalent for the later Prestolite/Leece Neville versions, but it's not that hard to work out. I seem to remember Mike Eck (?) added a couple of diodes across the top big resistor in the voltage divider to make it compensate for temperature variations during running.

kind regards
Marek

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#10 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by Djerome60 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:01 pm

Good morning,

just to keep you up to date.
I have received and changed the regulator yesterday and it has not sorted the issue.
The ignition light does come on at all (as previously) even before starting the engine.
I still do not have any charge at idle. I guess this is coming from the exitation circuit. I check the ignition bulb and seems ok.
What you i do next? Do you have the wiring diagram by any chance.
Many thanks in advance
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

Series 3 - 2+2 1972

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

vee12eman
Posts: 575
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:14 pm
Location: Down South
Kiribati

#11 Re: Charging issue on my se

Post by vee12eman » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:11 pm

Sorry, duplicate post, now edited, see below.
Last edited by vee12eman on Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Simon S-Y
Series III FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

vee12eman
Posts: 575
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:14 pm
Location: Down South
Kiribati

#12 Re: Charging

Post by vee12eman » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:13 pm

Hi Jerome,

Check the earth of the regulator. Corrosion or paint can prevent the regulator from earthing and you get the symptoms you describe. The earth is just fwd of the regulator.

Otherwise the alternator may not be earthing. The original design earths through the body of the alternator and it’s mounting bolts, but some replacement alternators (like my own) have the alternator body isolated and you have to provide an earth - you need a fairly heavy cable from the earth post to the car chassis. You can earth it to the alternator body, or dismantle the alternator and remove the insulation between post and the alternator body, I did both at various times.

I wrote an article on Series 3 alternator testing for the club a while back, I can’t remember which issue it came out in, but it covered a lot of problems because I experienced several myself. I may be able to find a copy and send it to you electronically if you can’t find the issue or are not a member. I think around issue 138 or so.

Good luck,

Simon.
Simon S-Y
Series III FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#13 Re: Charging

Post by Djerome60 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:46 pm

vee12eman wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:13 pm
Hi Jerome,

Check the earth of the regulator. Corrosion or paint can prevent the regulator from earthing and you get the symptoms you describe. The earth is just fwd of the regulator.

Otherwise the alternator may not be earthing. The original design earths through the body of the alternator and it’s mounting bolts, but some replacement alternators (like my own) have the alternator body isolated and you have to provide an earth - you need a fairly heavy cable from the earth post to the car chassis. You can earth it to the alternator body, or dismantle the alternator and remove the insulation between post and the alternator body, I did both at various times.

I wrote an article on Series 3 alternator testing for the club a while back, I can’t remember which issue it came out in, but it covered a lot of issues because I experienced several myself. I may be able to find a copy and send it to you electronically if you can’t find the issue or are not a member. I think around issue 130 or so.

Good luck,

Simon.
Hi Simon,
many thanks. i'll look at the earth points this week end and let you know. I have already cleaned some of them but as the front end has been completly repainted i guess the alternator earth as well as the regulator's might be faulty.
I'll let you know.
Thansk again.
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

Series 3 - 2+2 1972

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

jagwit
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:52 am
Location: Pretoria
South Africa

#14 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by jagwit » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:35 am

You may also find this interesting:
Charging issues on my car

And this:
False Battery gauge readings
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#15 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by Djerome60 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:17 pm

jagwit wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:35 am
You may also find this interesting:
Charging issues on my car

And this:
False Battery gauge readings
Thanks but the link takes me to your 130 A Alternator upgrade not to the charging issues you faced.

Yesterday i tried to move forward on my charging issue but did not succeed sor far.
I actually checked if that i have 12v going to the ignition bulb which is the case and check the voltage regulator earth point (i have directly plugged the neg of the battery to the voltage earth point).
I have also checked the alternator earth point and they look ok too.
What should i do next? do you think the Alternator is faulty? do you think that if the alternator is not well grounded this would explain that the ignition light does not come on? Or if the ignition light does not come on at all it's purely because there is either a wire issue from the regulator to the bulb?or because there teh regulator is still not properly grounded? (it's a brand new one).

Thanks
regards
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

Series 3 - 2+2 1972

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

jagwit
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:52 am
Location: Pretoria
South Africa

#16 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by jagwit » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:29 pm

Jerome

The circuit to make the ignition light come on is not very complicated.
1) there must be 12V on the white wire to the ignition light (when ignition is on). This is were the current for the light comes from.
2) the Brown/Black wire from the ignition light goes via a plug and socket (does this plug and socket make good contact??) directly to the terminal on the regulator where it is co-terminated with a Brown/Red wire.
3) the Brown/Red wire goes directly to Field +;
4) Field + is just a "roll of wire" inside the Alternator - hence very little that could go wrong here.
5) the current goes through this roll of wire, and comes out at Field - and goes back to the Field - terminal on the regulator;
6) inside the regulator the the current goes through the large transistor (which should be "on") to the regulator earth.

So, lets do a few simple tests (with ignition on)
First test: Remove the terminal from the regulator that has the Brown/Black and Brown/Red wire. Ground it briefly (less than 1 second) to any chassis point that has a good electrical earth. Does the light come on during this brief grounding? This should be a most harmless test.

The outcome of this test will guide us to the next steps.
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#17 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by Djerome60 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:20 pm

jagwit wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:29 pm
Jerome

The circuit to make the ignition light come on is not very complicated.
1) there must be 12V on the white wire to the ignition light (when ignition is on). This is were the current for the light comes from.
2) the Brown/Black wire from the ignition light goes via a plug and socket (does this plug and socket make good contact??) directly to the terminal on the regulator where it is co-terminated with a Brown/Red wire.
3) the Brown/Red wire goes directly to Field +;
4) Field + is just a "roll of wire" inside the Alternator - hence very little that could go wrong here.
5) the current goes through this roll of wire, and comes out at Field - and goes back to the Field - terminal on the regulator;
6) inside the regulator the the current goes through the large transistor (which should be "on") to the regulator earth.

So, lets do a few simple tests (with ignition on)
First test: Remove the terminal from the regulator that has the Brown/Black and Brown/Red wire. Ground it briefly (less than 1 second) to any chassis point that has a good electrical earth. Does the light come on during this brief grounding? This should be a most harmless test.

The outcome of this test will guide us to the next steps.
Thanks.

Regarding your point listed below see what i have done:
1) Yes i have 12V at the white wire when i turn the ignition key
2) I cleaned the socket and followed the Brown/black wire up to the terminal of the regulator
3) The brown/red goes well to the Field + of the alternator

I ll try to use tonight when the bulb of the 'low fuel" indicator to make the test as i broke the ignition's one yesterday when trying to remove it from the holder.
I'll do teh test you mentionned and get back to you for further guidance.
Thanks again for you help.
It's good to be helped by expert!
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

Series 3 - 2+2 1972

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

vee12eman
Posts: 575
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:14 pm
Location: Down South
Kiribati

#18 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by vee12eman » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:50 pm

Hi Jerome,

If the regulator was replaced and still did not fix the problem and the circuit checked out ok otherwise (have you checked that thoroughly?), then unless you were unlucky enough to get a faulty replacement regulator, then it is most likely the alternator. They are expensive but can often be easily repaired cheaply and they are not difficult to dismantle and test. I did offer earlier in the post to send an article I wrote on testing the alternator. If you pm me your email address I can send a digital copy. Otherwise see about getting the alternator tested rather than simply replacing it, just in case it’s actually ok. My comment about the alternator earth was that some versions of the alternator actually have insulated bodies, allowing them to be used in either negative or positive earth vehicles. If you don’t know how to check this then the alternator earth can appear to be fine. You have to check from the alternator earth post (which is not actually used on the Jaguar set up), to the car. Just checking the body of the alternator to the car does not actually confirm the earth if the alternator has the insulated body set up I mentioned. This was one of the many problems I encountered, along with the triple diode of the alternator failing (very simple to test, remove and replace and very cheap relative to a complete alternator).

Regards,

Simon.
Simon S-Y
Series III FHC

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#19 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by Djerome60 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:33 pm

vee12eman wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:50 pm
Hi Jerome,

If the regulator was replaced and still did not fix the problem and the circuit checked out ok otherwise (have you checked that thoroughly?), then unless you were unlucky enough to get a faulty replacement regulator, then it is most likely the alternator. They are expensive but can often be easily repaired cheaply and they are not difficult to dismantle and test. I did offer earlier in the post to send an article I wrote on testing the alternator. If you pm me your email address I can send a digital copy. Otherwise see about getting the alternator tested rather than simply replacing it, just in case it’s actually ok. My comment about the alternator earth was that some versions of the alternator actually have insulated bodies, allowing them to be used in either negative or positive earth vehicles. If you don’t know how to check this then the alternator earth can appear to be fine. You have to check from the alternator earth post (which is not actually used on the Jaguar set up), to the car. Just checking the body of the alternator to the car does not actually confirm the earth if the alternator has the insulated body set up I mentioned. This was one of the many problems I encountered, along with the triple diode of the alternator failing (very simple to test, remove and replace and very cheap relative to a complete alternator).

Regards,

Simon.
Simon,

some news even if i'm struggling to find spare time currently to move forward.
I have received a new bulb and guess what? the buld come on now when i turn the ignition key..... but unfortunately remains on when engine is running.
I read your article (very clear by the way - congrats) and i think the next think i'll do is to ground properly the alternator as per your article and then i'll do all testing again.
I guess i'll also put back to old regulator.
I have also found on ebay an alternator for which i'm biding in case.
Keep you posted
thanks again for you great support
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

Series 3 - 2+2 1972

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

jagwit
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:52 am
Location: Pretoria
South Africa

#20 Re: Charging issue on my series 3

Post by jagwit » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:07 pm

Does the light go off when you disconnect the connector to the regulator?
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic