Series 3, go on persuade me!

Talk about the E-Type Series 3
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andrewh
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#1 Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by andrewh » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:50 pm

I am a proud owner of a series One 3.8 and fully restored it, the thread is under restorations 860897. I have been looking for a 3.8 Roadster to restore but have temporarily given up due to the cost of candidates and have started to focus on the V12.

I should say that I have owned 3 V12s in total, but the last one I sold in 1989 so a long while ago. I have been trying to buy back a V12 I had known since new and became the second owner , but when I did find the car the current owner is not interested in selling. I never really travelled very far in any of my V12s and I am starting to get a bit excited by the prospect of buying a roadster to restore for myself.

Preamble over, what I want some advice on, is how to make the car a bit more "sports car" and less cruiser. I know a lot of water has gone under the bridge since I last had a V12 , but I would be very interested to find out what owners have done to their cars to sharpen them up a bit. So for instance, the steering always felt a bit distant, and the suspension perhaps a bit wallowy. The car has a fabulous engine, and a great heritage and to me they look superb. If I was going to build one, what should I be looking to incorporate ? I would prefer a manual , but would buy an automatic and convert it if thats easy to do, again any information would be much appreciated.

Finally and perhaps somewhat irrelevant really, but what do owners get to the gallon for a properly set up V12? I have a very nice XJ12 series One on Strombergs and it does no more than 11 mpg. Gets a bit off-putting to take it anywhere. If I could build a EV12 and get 16 mpg I would be happy.

thanks in advance, I look forward to learning a bit. Andrew
1962 3.8 Series One FHC

http://etype860897.blogspot.com/

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MarekH
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#2 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by MarekH » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:18 pm

Dear Andrew,

You'll get 11mpg day and night out of an automatic US spec v12 and you can get up to 17mpg form a UK spec manual v12. A fuel injected car can do better than that - in theory I think 22-23mpg is possible with a proper mapped ignition to boot.

If you want to discuss every possible type of modification for the s3, then drop by for a cup of tea.

The main problem with a conversion from auto to manual is sourcing the bellhousing which is much rarer then the six cylinder variant.

kind regards
Marek

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JJC
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#3 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by JJC » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:05 pm

I have had a Series 3 since new (1973 OTS), and I can tell you since I installed a 5 speed ten years , it a vastly improved car. Around town ( I drive it in NYC weekly) yes, can't get better then 12 MPG. However on the U.S Interstate highway system, long drives, no stop and go, I have seen close to 20 MPG. Also, I have gone to great length to fine tune my SU's , set the timing just right, plugs gaped on the money, reduced back pressure, not much, just a bit (removed the useless resonator), and K&N filters so it can breathe a bit better. Nothing dramatic, just minor improvements. By the way...you will not meet anybody in any forum, who knows more about the Series 3, and can articulate his knowledge more clearly then Marek. Good man. Try his LED back up lights !!
Good luck !

John

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Barry
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#4 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by Barry » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:12 pm

Oh, and to answer your question on fuel consumption with the 6.0 litre fuel injected engine. 18mpg on a run, 15mpg around town. I could get more if I drive it gently, but what’s the point. Performance: 0-60mph in about 5.5, but it’s the torque and top gear flexibility that is truly amazing. That’s why you don’t need 5 gears. And whatever you do, stay clear of a Getrag 5 speed box. Not good! Best Barry

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#5 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by Barry » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:21 pm

Hi Andrew,
I’m afraid a post re my V12 did not get through. I will try and remember what I said! I sold a beautiful 3.8 FHC for a rather special V12 roadster. Restored by M&C Wilkinson, and fitted with one of the last 6.0 litre V12’s. AJ6 larger throttle bodies, XJS fuel injection, AJ6 TT exhaust, special ECU. All in all pushing out 375 to 400bhp. Brakes and suspension upgraded. Steering has Bob Beeres adjustable valve to give heavier weighting. Standard gearbox with XJS 2.8 lsd Diff, 235/60 x 16 tyres on 16x7 wires. The rear arches have been beautifully eased to fit the tyres. Contact me for loads more info, or pop over to Dorset for a drive! Best Barry

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Series1 Stu
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#6 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by Series1 Stu » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:38 pm

JJC wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:05 pm
I have had a Series 3 since new (1973 OTS), and I can tell you since I installed a 5 speed ten years , it a vastly improved car. Around town ( I drive it in NYC weekly) yes, can't get better then 12 MPG. However on the U.S Interstate highway system, long drives, no stop and go, I have seen close to 20 MPG.

John
Hi John
Presumably, your MPG figures are with reference to US gallons rather than Imperial gallons on this side of the pond.
That's approx 3.8 litres vs 4.5 litres per gallon.

Regards
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'94 X300 XJR basket case

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#7 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by JJC » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:00 am

Sorry...yes, US gallons.

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garrycol
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#8 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by garrycol » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:09 am

I have kept extensive fuel consumption records (standard UK V12 with auto) - best 17mpg (Portsmouth to Dover) - worst was 11mpg - around town in downtown Sydney. Overall average and typical is 14mpg.

For everyday use stay with a 3.07 diff, 2.88 for a cruiser or the 3.5? diff ratios - I changed my auto to a 5 speed using a local GM Getrag gearbox - my own installation and it works ok but I can and will do better with a different conversion in future.

Performance improvements - yes get the steering tightened up, the brakes are poor and fade with repeated braking so better/bigger brakes would be a consideration. Heavy duty torsion bars up the front with upgraded shocks (I have konies) and plastic bushes - ride is still OK. I still have standard rear suspension but slightly stronger springs (but not too much) and better shocks would help.

The reality is that despite the rhetoric, a standard V12 will outperform an early 6 in all aspects if cars are in similar condition. Yes an early 6 did do 150mph under special conditions but straight off the floor not so - the V12 off the floor was about 147 so a little faster, certainly quicker and handles/brakes better. The V12 smoothed everything out so felt "fat" where the 6s had a few faults that makes them a bit more exciting and raw to drive - more sporting :-).

So with a V12 -average about 14mpg (proper mpg) - look at steering, brakes and suspension.

Garry
1971 Series 3 E-type OTS

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Whitact
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#9 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by Whitact » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:56 am

Hi Andrew,
My FHC and OTS are both converted automatics with ETF boxes, 0.63 fifth and 3.07 diffs.
The OTS covered 12k miles and the FHC about 3k over the last year. Both will easily top 22mpg (imperial) on a long run and never go below 16mpg even when chasing around the Picos or running at good autobahn speeds.
The OTS is on Boge, metalastics and Strombergs as Jaguar intended, the FHC is on Gaz, polybush and SUs.
Each to their own, but for my money the OTS is a much nicer drive then the FHC and for any decent length trip both are better than the S1FHC.
Best mods: ETF box, vacuum advance, RB PAS valve & replacing Pirellis with SP Sports.
Cheers,
Adrian Turner
S3 OTS & FHC
S1 FHC
XK140 FHC

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#10 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by andrewh » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:25 am

MarekH wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:18 pm
Dear Andrew,

You'll get 11mpg day and night out of an automatic US spec v12 and you can get up to 17mpg form a UK spec manual v12. A fuel injected car can do better than that - in theory I think 22-23mpg is possible with a proper mapped ignition to boot.

If you want to discuss every possible type of modification for the s3, then drop by for a cup of tea.

The main problem with a conversion from auto to manual is sourcing the bellhousing which is much rarer then the six cylinder variant.

kind regards
Marek
Thank you Marek, I am just formulating the idea at the moment and will let it sink in. I have seen from time to time US cars come up for money that would make a full restoration feasible. I like the idea of a 5 speed but not too sure on the Getrag. I am sure I had a car with one years ago and it was very notch. It was either a HS2300 Chevette I owned or a Lotus Sunbeam...
My interest in MPG is purely down to the fact that I would like to use the car rather than look at it, and my XJ12 gets more of the latter than the former!
1962 3.8 Series One FHC

http://etype860897.blogspot.com/

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#11 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by andrewh » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:38 am

Thank you everyone that responded to help me with this. There is clearly a lot of love for the V12 out there, and why not. I have always liked the look of the car, and I recall seeing my first one. Back then as a youngster (13) the early Series Cars looked vaguely old fashioned on their spindly wheels, whereas the V12 Series 3 looked the dogs dangly bits. I actually love the whine the engine makes as well. I spent a long while talking with Alan Hames at Hampton Court this year, his is the famous one owner primrose with black hard top registered AVV1 I think. He adores his, and the passion he has for his started me off again .

This is me with my second V12 imported from the US.

I have a lot of intel on this thread already and can revert back to you all for details if I go ahead. I am going to have a look around and see whether I can find a project car now.

thanks once again chaps.
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1962 3.8 Series One FHC

http://etype860897.blogspot.com/

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Barry
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#12 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by Barry » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:21 pm

Hi Andrew,
If you were at Hampton Court talking to Alan Hames, then you will have seen my 6.0 V12 Roadster. Red with black. The bonnet was up most of the time, with huge interest to the engine with fuel injection etc.
Contact me after you have found a car.
Best
Barry

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#13 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by andrewh » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:11 pm

thanks Barry. Was it this V12 behind the Series Two?
Image
and this is the car I really want to buy back as I was the second owner and my XJ12 was owned by the same family. Not overly keen on Lavender but colour is not relevant in this case.

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1962 3.8 Series One FHC

http://etype860897.blogspot.com/

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#14 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by Barry » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:52 pm

No, I think you will find it was the next car along the line with the bonnet up! Apologies, I am having difficulty attaching photo files as they are too big! Tell me how to reduce the file size from my iPad, and I’ll send some pics! Ta Barry

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#15 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by Barry » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:59 pm

Let’s hope this works. Barry
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#16 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by jagwit » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:12 am

If I had to build myself a "nice" E-type V12 (again...), here's what I would do:

1) find a 10:1 Pre-HE engine (ex '80 XJS) and fit its pistons to the E-type engine together with a light weight alu flywheel; ( this will yield a significant engine performance increase but retain the original appearance and engine number)
2) fit a modern ignition system (proven to work for a V12 @ 6000rpm !!!) with vacuum advance. Better still, a mapped distributorless ignition system (as per picture);
3) fit a 5 or 6 speed manual transmission with appropriate ratios.

My precious E-type (OTS)was fitted with a standard 5.3 HE engine (EFI managed by Megasquirt-2), light weight flywheel, and standard 4-sp manual transmission. See pic. This car could keep up with a 4.2L Supercharged XKR.
Attachments
tn2_DSCF1168.jpg
tn2_DSCF1168.jpg (225.28 KiB) Viewed 1178 times
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

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#17 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by andrewh » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:17 pm

Wow, thats a nice looking set up. Judging from the photos, its an Eagle supplied car? Did you say that the original engine was retained and the fuel injection was form a later car?
1962 3.8 Series One FHC

http://etype860897.blogspot.com/

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#18 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by jagwit » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:25 pm

andrewh wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:17 pm
Wow, thats a nice looking set up. Judging from the photos, its an Eagle supplied car?
I'll take that as a compliment :bigrin: Nope, this is a South African back yard special. I did try very hard to have a visually presentable engine.
andrewh wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:17 pm
Did you say that the original engine was retained and the fuel injection was form a later car?
When I bought the car, I had a very good understanding of EFI but no understanding or tolerance of carbs. First thing I did was to convert the standard pre-HE engine to EFI using standard XJ12/DD6/XJS HE EFI hardware but I deleted the distributor and fitted the same dual EDIS-6 ignition setup that I developed for my XJS. All this was managed by Megasquirt-2.

Then, I had an engine failure (seized big end bearing). This turned out to be due to an accident that occurred before I bought the car as evidenced by the cracked bell housing and a grossly deformed sump baffle found in the sump. Clearly the car had been in a rather severe incident. I was now faced with a choice of rebuilding the engine as an HE or a pre-HE. I opted for the HE build hoping to get the benefits of the HE combustion chamber with regard to economy.

So in the end, it ended up having the original matching numbers block, std HE 11:1 CR pistons, imported from the US, HE heads with the light weight Fidanza flywheel - same as what I have in the XJS. The alu flywheel also required a change of starter to a reduction gear starter (also a good upgrade).

The car ended up having very substantial performance. My friend had the 4.2 XKR and its against that car that I pitched my E and neither car had the better of the other.

I sold that OTS because it was simply too impractical and unpleasant to use for long distance touring. I also needed the garage space to accommodate the 74 Interceptor I now have.
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

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#19 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by jagwit » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:54 pm

jagwit wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:25 pm

I sold that OTS
BTW, current owner is selling this very car: Philip's ex-OTS
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

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#20 Re: Series 3, go on persuade me!

Post by andrewh » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:46 pm

thanks for the pointers. If I am being completely honest with myself, I still yearn to buy back the lavender car. I have been searching for it for 7 years and now I have found it its a bit frustrating to be in the ownership of a property multi millionaire who doesn't use it. He didnt show any real interest in its past and wasn't particularly interested in talking with me about the car, which leads me to think that he has no real regard for it. A true enthusiast has passion and would be interested in hearing of my knowledge of the car. Which is, that it a friends family car from new, and I was second owner, so perhaps it will come my way when he gets bored with it.
1962 3.8 Series One FHC

http://etype860897.blogspot.com/

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