"...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Talk about the E-Type Series 3

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panamacarrera
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#1 "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by panamacarrera » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:09 pm

In one last attempt to thwart me taking her engine out my S3 has decided not to let go of the transmission/propeller shaft. Nuts & bolts are holding fast to the point where I'm in danger of rounding the heads. Looking at the torque settings they shouldn't be that tight, just 28-32lb.ft., but my car hasn't read the book.

Anybody learnt any clever tips that might help me win this battle of wills?

Cheers!

Nigel

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Jeremy
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#2 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by Jeremy » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:23 pm

Mine were stuck fast too Nigel. I take it you've drenched them with Plusgas? Best penetrating oil I've found. Anyway I had to grind the nuts off with a dremel. Horrible job. The grinding damaged the bolts and you can't get them out unless you're going to do surgery on the gearbox...
Jeremy
1967 S1 4.2 FHC

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mgcjag
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#3 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by mgcjag » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:56 pm

Get some heat on the nuts....a hand held propane torch can work wonders... Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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chrisfell
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#4 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by chrisfell » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:59 pm

mgcjag wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:56 pm
Get some heat on the nuts....a hand held propane torch can work wonders... Steve
If these are the gearbox end of the prop shaft I’d not use a flame, not with trim and oil and under seal. If the nuts/bolts are rounding I wouldn’t try to save them, they are toast. I’d grind them off and buy new replacements.
Chris '67 S1 2+2

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tim wood
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#5 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by tim wood » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:32 pm

If it’s of any use I’ve just refitted my prop and had similar issues at the gearbox end.
The locking nuts had been reused and were showing signs of being rounded and were very tight. Aware of any potential issues I didn’t want to risk destroying the nuts completely so spent a while selecting the closest fitting ring spanner I had and making sure it was fitted very snugly onto the nut. This entailed tapping it into place with a short thin drift until it was right up against the end of the prop all round..
Heart in mouth and constant heavy pulling did the trick.


If you damage the bolts then it’s no option but to take off the pinion fitting which you want to avoid.
Series 1 2+2 now sold
Series 1.5 OTS in opalescent maroon with beige interior now back home from California and in my garage !

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#6 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by JJC » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:38 pm

All things can be removed ! LOL Yup...some heat, any good penetrating oil, and eventually they will come out. Replace with new bolts anyway. Remember to take a few inches off the shaft, install a new collapsible section, and re-balance, before you put back in. In the future, in all long wheel base cars, such as Series 3 cars, it will be a very easy job to pull transmission. Clutch changing , addressing a flywheel issue, etc, will be an afternoon's job. No need to pull engine. Keep drenching those bad boys.....you'll get them out !

John

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#7 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by MarekH » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:50 pm

Dear Nigel,

Why don't you just see if you can not take them off till after the engine is out?

The propshaft is in two pieces, joined in the middle by a splined shaft which is hidden under a rubber gaiter. If you can simply pull the joint apart then it'll come apart, subject to the other half of the propshaft being able to move.

kind regards
Marek

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Series1 Stu
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#8 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by Series1 Stu » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:55 pm

When your replace the bolts, make sure they are T rated. Anything less could see your prop shaft digging into the tarmac.

Regards
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'94 X300 XJR basket case

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#9 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by lowact » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:03 am

MarekH wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:50 pm
The propshaft is in two pieces, joined in the middle by a splined shaft which is hidden under a rubber gaiter. If you can simply pull the joint apart ...
I have this ahead of me so very keen to learn if this would work, can’t see why not?
Tim is saying “If you damage the bolts then it’s no option but to take off the pinion fitting which you want to avoid.” By pinion fitting, do u mean the propshaft yolk? Why should this be avoided, if u match-mark 1st so can be reinstated to the same balance? Presumable, as part of the engine out, the prop-shaft will also be removed/checked/refurbished?
Only experience I can add, I found PO had cut the floor pan so the top of the tunnel over the gearbox end uni-joints could be folded back, I decided to repair by brazing (with just the gearbox access cover removed). With the underbody seal well soaked with oil from leaking rear end seal I was concerned about fires so had s&h standing by with an extinguisher. Wasn’t required, everything very reluctant to burn.

Is the job is being done by the book, with the engine lowered a bit to give proper access to the bolts?
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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angelw
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#10 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by angelw » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:20 am

Colin Wrote:
I have this ahead of me so very keen to learn if this would work, can’t see why not?
Hello Colin,
The Prop Shaft does indeed have a splined coupling, but at one end and nowhere near the centre. The splined coupling end is originally affixed to the gearbox companion flange, although I've seen a few that have the Prop Shaft mounted back to front with the splined coupling attached to the pinion companion flange.

If you can't get the bolts securing the Prop Shaft to the gearbox undone, the splined coupling (female component) will slide free of the Prop Shaft as the Engine and Gearbox are moved forward. There is a rubber gaiter protecting the spine from the ingress of contaminants. Its a firm sliding fit on the plane journal just before where the male spline starts and secured at its other end with a metal collar. Either the splined shaft will slide through the gaiter, or the gaiter will come away from the coupling (normally the former) when the Engine and Gearbox are moved forward. This method will work if the Prop Shaft has been attached between the Gearbox and Differential correctly with the splined coupling towards the front. If the splined coupling is attached to the Pinion Companion Flange, I suspect that the Prop Shaft will inhibit lifting the engine.

Colin Wrote:
Tim is saying “If you damage the bolts then it’s no option but to take off the pinion fitting which you want to avoid.” By pinion fitting, do u mean the propshaft yolk? Why should this be avoided, if u match-mark 1st so can be reinstated to the same balance? Presumable, as part of the engine out, the prop-shaft will also be removed/checked/refurbished?
There is no issue with dismantling the Prop Shaft from the Pinion Companion Flange, except with regards to my comments above and the Prop Shaft inhibiting lifting the Engine/Gearbox.

I normally remove the engine with practically no lifting (modified motor cycle jack placed under the sump) and wheeling it forward. However, this method requires the carburetors and picture frame to be removed first, but would allow the Prop Shaft to come out as a whole, or separate from the splined coupling if its attached to the Pinion Companion Flange. The same forward movement with the picture frame in place and relatively little vertical movement of the engine is possible using an engine hoist, or crane.

Regards,

Bill

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tim wood
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#11 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by tim wood » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:20 pm

By pinion fitting I mean the flange on the end of the gearbox.
The comment by Marek about splitting the prop sounds a good thought
Tim
Series 1 2+2 now sold
Series 1.5 OTS in opalescent maroon with beige interior now back home from California and in my garage !

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MarekH
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#12 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by MarekH » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:39 pm

It's only a suggestion:- if it is assembled as per oem then there should only be a very short stub of propshaft at the front end and it may the case that this can be lifted out together with the gearbox and engine if it can be pulled forward as it lifts. If it comes down to the last inch, then the rear end may be disconnected at the rear flange and moved to the side in its tunnel to pull it back against the differential. This may give you enough freedom to simply disconnect.

I am surprised that the nuts or bolts are rounded - I thought you only have space for a ring spanner on the front yoke anyway.

kind regards
Marek

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Ole-xke1974
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#13 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by Ole-xke1974 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:29 am

MarekH wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:39 pm
I am surprised that the nuts or bolts are rounded - I thought you only have space for a ring spanner on the front yoke anyway.

IIRC the bolt and nut will rotate but there's no room for a ring spanner, just a fork. :banghead:
1974 SIII E-Type w. XJ S2 4sp w. O/D

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panamacarrera
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#14 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by panamacarrera » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:33 pm

Sorted!

Thanks for all your suggestions folks.

I went with Marek's suggestion and it worked just fine. Much easier to remove the propshaft bolts with the thing outside the car and liberal use of propane heat. I still have one more to get out - I'm taking the transmission to a mate who has oxyacetylene tomorrow for the final sod!

Thanks again.

Cheers!

Nigel




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#15 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by tim wood » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:54 pm

I’m sure others will comment but it looks to me that your bolts are in the wrong way round. I thought that the bolts should be fitted so that the nuts came on from the rear (axle ) end with the bolts fitted through the gearbox flange.


Tim
Series 1 2+2 now sold
Series 1.5 OTS in opalescent maroon with beige interior now back home from California and in my garage !

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#16 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by angelw » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:02 am

Tim Wrote"
I thought that the bolts should be fitted so that the nuts came on from the rear (axle ) end with the bolts fitted through the gearbox flange.
Hello Tim,
Quite correct. Originally and normally, the bolts are assembled through the holes in the gearbox companion flange so that the head of the bolt is towards the front of the car. These should be put in place before tapping the flange home on the spline, as its not possible to fit them in this orientation afterwards.

Regards,

Bill

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#17 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by jagwit » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:15 am

angelw wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:02 am
so that the head of the bolt is towards the front of the car.
Why? This way it is so much more of an issue to replace a damaged bolt. Is there an engineering reason why the bolt head should face towards the front?
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

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angelw
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#18 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by angelw » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:09 am

Philip Wrote:
Why? This way it is so much more of an issue to replace a damaged bolt. Is there an engineering reason why the bolt head should face towards the front?
Hello Philip,
In terms of securing the flanged joint, no advantage one way, or the other. I can only think that in the unlikely event that if three of the four nuts should come undone with the fourth loose, the bolts can't fall out and the tail-shaft will be roughly retained in position. In this situation you would be aware of a problem, but the tail-shaft wouldn't be thrashing around in its tunnel. The Jaguar workshop manual specifies assembly in this manner. Notwithstanding being loose, the fact that the bolts are still retained in position, they would still take considerable shear load.

Colin Wrote:
Bill. with your evident expertise, r u a business or private person?
Hello Colin,
A business, specializing in E Type restoration. All metal finish - no filler other than lead.

Following are a few pictures inside the shop.

Regards,

Bill

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Last edited by angelw on Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#19 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by JagWaugh » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:20 am

angelw wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:09 am
Bill wrote:
In terms of securing the flanged joint, no advantage one way, or the other. I can only think that in the unlikely event that if three of the four nuts should come undone with the fourth loose, the bolts can't fall out and the tail-shaft will be roughly retained in position. In this situation you would be aware of a problem, but the tail-shaft wouldn't be thrashing around in its tunnel. The Jaguar workshop manual specifies assembly in this manner. Notwithstanding being loose, the fact that the bolts are still retained in position, they would still take considerable shear load.
I can think of two more reasons to install the bolts with the heads forward:

1) Having the exposed threads to the rear means that they are less likely to be damaged by debris picked up by the front wheels.

2) Having the nuts at the rear means that if you do have to put heat on them then the flange is between your flame and the rear seal on the tailshaft.

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#20 Re: "...remove bolts securing propeller shaft..."

Post by mgcjag » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:06 pm

Just thought i would look up this bolt orientation.....both my S1,2, & 3 service manuals say nothing about it in the removal or refitting section for prop shaft.....however on page G4. (S1.2 manual) there is an exploded view of the prop...at both ends it shows the bolts go in from the prop side

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Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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